Trump Indictment ( includes NY AG and Fed documents case ) (2 Viewers)

[SteveSBrickNJ]

Former President D. Trump has been indicted by a New York Grand Jury. There will be much to talk about on this topic because this is just the first step in a lengthy process.
Possibly it is worthy of its own thread here rather than posting about Trump's indictment in already existing threads?
*
This 3/31/23 story might get the ball rolling....
*

Manhattan’s DA wanted a Friday Trump arrest. Trump’s team said no.

Secret Service needed more time to prepare, according to the ex-president’s legal team.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Saintamaniac]

But it's the coolest when other posters, including yourself, do it to me.

That gander sauce never goes down easy, does it?

Typical response from these folks. When you don't have the facts or truth on your side, cry "whataboutism" even if the "whataboutism" is baseless as it is in this case. We are supposed to believe that this "person" is a 61 year old educator. Hi Farb.

 

[Optimus Prime]

there are some doozies in the comments



The whole statement
==============

While beating their chests about the horrors of Trump holding classified information, the fact is that the corrupt Biden DOJ, sleazy Jack Smith’s office, and the usual corrupt media lapdogs have publicly identified, characterized, and even released whateverclassified information is known to the public.

In this, they’ve committed scores of felonies, interfered in a presidential election, and have pushed the nation to the brink of some kind of civil war, while smearing and denouncing Trump and his supporters. Trump hasn’t leaked anything to the public. They have.

After 50 years in Washington, Biden owns the federal bureaucracy. The thoroughly corrupt Biden family and Biden regime use the power of federal law enforcement against their political opponents (“MAGA extremists,” pro-lifers, parents — all “white supremicists,” whatever that means), while the same investigators and prosecutors pull all punches, lie, censor, coverup, dismiss, play down, all the publicly known evidence (thank you FBI and IRS whistleblowers, Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan, and James Comer) of millions and millions of dollars in foreign government payoffs, bribes, influence-peddling, money laundering, and other sleazy Biden financial schemes, especially involving selling out to our biggest threat, communist China. We’ve a Manchurian president.

The whistleblowers have testified about obstruction, political interference, multiple underlying crimes, etc. They’ve been ignored by the corrupt media, personally attacked by the power-hungry Democrat Party, and punished by the Biden regime.AG Garland, corrupt to the core like most mob lawyers, has been caught perjuring himself before Congress and obstructing justice by claiming to not have interfered in the Hunter investigation when IRS whistleblowers say the prosecutor told them he did. And they’ve numerous witnesses and contemporaneous notes to back them up.

Garland has approved every sleazy investigative and prosecutorial tactic against Trump and “MAGA” Republicans, while trying to create a public image of the earnest judge. He’s a dangerous man with Stalinist characteristics.Garland has stonewalled appointing a special counsel to investigate his boss, Joe Biden, because he wants to smother with a political pillow Biden’s multiple criminal activities, that even involve our national security. He’s the man in charge of the Biden coverup and the Trump imprisonment effort.Garland appointed and unleashed the disgraced Jack Smith, known for Gestopo-like tactics, to pursue Biden’s political targets (especially “MAGA” Republicans) and his biggest threat and nemesis, Trump.

Smith was publicly admonished in an 8-0 Supreme Court decision for his abuse of power in a phony public corruption case brought against a former Republican governor. Garland saw that as a compelling credential.Garland, Biden, his operatives, the hopelessly corrupt media, and the Democrat Party are destroying our country right before our eyes. This latest prosecutorial leak of an audio clip to CNN, is further intended to poison a jury pool and deny the former president due process, as he was denied attorney-client privilege and the usual administrative processes afforded former presidents when leaving office.

To be clear, we know nothing about the context of the audio. Nothing. We are fed exactly two minutes via CNN, a favorite state-run media outlet. We know no more or no less than they tell us. And the multiple felonies committed by the regime in leaking the tape will be ignored. Felonies committed in pursuit of Trump are no longer felonies. The “justice system “ is dead. The Democrat Party owns the federal government.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

there are some doozies in the comments



The whole statement
==============

While beating their chests about the horrors of Trump holding classified information, the fact is that the corrupt Biden DOJ, sleazy Jack Smith’s office, and the usual corrupt media lapdogs have publicly identified, characterized, and even released whateverclassified information is known to the public.

In this, they’ve committed scores of felonies, interfered in a presidential election, and have pushed the nation to the brink of some kind of civil war, while smearing and denouncing Trump and his supporters. Trump hasn’t leaked anything to the public. They have.

After 50 years in Washington, Biden owns the federal bureaucracy. The thoroughly corrupt Biden family and Biden regime use the power of federal law enforcement against their political opponents (“MAGA extremists,” pro-lifers, parents — all “white supremicists,” whatever that means), while the same investigators and prosecutors pull all punches, lie, censor, coverup, dismiss, play down, all the publicly known evidence (thank you FBI and IRS whistleblowers, Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan, and James Comer) of millions and millions of dollars in foreign government payoffs, bribes, influence-peddling, money laundering, and other sleazy Biden financial schemes, especially involving selling out to our biggest threat, communist China. We’ve a Manchurian president.

The whistleblowers have testified about obstruction, political interference, multiple underlying crimes, etc. They’ve been ignored by the corrupt media, personally attacked by the power-hungry Democrat Party, and punished by the Biden regime.AG Garland, corrupt to the core like most mob lawyers, has been caught perjuring himself before Congress and obstructing justice by claiming to not have interfered in the Hunter investigation when IRS whistleblowers say the prosecutor told them he did. And they’ve numerous witnesses and contemporaneous notes to back them up.

Garland has approved every sleazy investigative and prosecutorial tactic against Trump and “MAGA” Republicans, while trying to create a public image of the earnest judge. He’s a dangerous man with Stalinist characteristics.Garland has stonewalled appointing a special counsel to investigate his boss, Joe Biden, because he wants to smother with a political pillow Biden’s multiple criminal activities, that even involve our national security. He’s the man in charge of the Biden coverup and the Trump imprisonment effort.Garland appointed and unleashed the disgraced Jack Smith, known for Gestopo-like tactics, to pursue Biden’s political targets (especially “MAGA” Republicans) and his biggest threat and nemesis, Trump.

Smith was publicly admonished in an 8-0 Supreme Court decision for his abuse of power in a phony public corruption case brought against a former Republican governor. Garland saw that as a compelling credential.Garland, Biden, his operatives, the hopelessly corrupt media, and the Democrat Party are destroying our country right before our eyes. This latest prosecutorial leak of an audio clip to CNN, is further intended to poison a jury pool and deny the former president due process, as he was denied attorney-client privilege and the usual administrative processes afforded former presidents when leaving office.

To be clear, we know nothing about the context of the audio. Nothing. We are fed exactly two minutes via CNN, a favorite state-run media outlet. We know no more or no less than they tell us. And the multiple felonies committed by the regime in leaking the tape will be ignored. Felonies committed in pursuit of Trump are no longer felonies. The “justice system “ is dead. The Democrat Party owns the federal government.

I thought that was from a parody account until I saw who tweeted that nonsense. BTW, he forgot to mention Barrack Hussein Obama, HRC, George Soros, and how they all tie back to Jeffery Epstein!

 

[MT15]

Don’t we have a thread for the Carroll case?

Alina Habba is a total goofball.

Oh, yeah, sorry - I forgot there was a separate thread. But while you’re here - law Twitter is saying she might get in big trouble for this, what do you think?

 

[Snarky Sack]

There aren’t depositions in criminal cases.

Unless an extraordinary circumstance requires the witness’s testimony be preserved for trial (because the witness is going to be dead, or in a war, or on the moon).

If LA - L.A. had said that, he would have been correct.

 

[superchuck500]

Oh, yeah, sorry - I forgot there was a separate thread. But while you’re here - law Twitter is saying she might get in big trouble for this, what do you think?

I saw suggestion it could be Rule 11 sanctions but I don’t think that’s big trouble. Might mean attorneys fees to Carroll for responding but it’s nothing like bad trouble or the kind of sanctions we saw for Powell or Eastman. It’s more ordinary bad lawyering than anything serious.

So much of the legal circles around trump have just been truly awful - bad lawyers. He’s had some decent White House counsel but he hated them. He hates being told there’s some other authority beyond his own desires. It leaves him with bad lawyers.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

You said " . . . in a criminal trial, there are no depositions," which is not correct on any level.

How could I have been off the mark by quoting the rules exactly?

I pointed out a similar slight error about depositions to MT15 and they just said "ok sworn statements." No big deal.

Except this was your original statement:

The sworn statements cannot be admitted, so there will be depositions, no doubt.

Given that the rule for depositions in this case (the rule you quoted) says that the court "may grant the motion because of exceptional circumstances", how is there "no doubt" that there will be depositions?

 

[MT15]

Except this was your original statement:



Given that the rule for depositions in this case (the rule you quoted) says that the court "may grant the motion because of exceptional circumstances", how is there "no doubt" that there will be depositions?

I saw him toting those goalposts, lol. But I can’t respond to everything.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Except this was your original statement:



Given that the rule for depositions in this case (the rule you quoted) says that the court "may grant the motion because of exceptional circumstances", how is there "no doubt" that there will be depositions?

You are correct, sir or ma'am! No doubt I was mistaken to say "no doubt."

Well, shirt . . . that was easy . . .

 

[LA - L.A.]

there are some doozies in the comments



The whole statement
==============

While beating their chests about the horrors of Trump holding classified information, the fact is that the corrupt Biden DOJ, sleazy Jack Smith’s office, and the usual corrupt media lapdogs have publicly identified, characterized, and even released whateverclassified information is known to the public.

In this, they’ve committed scores of felonies, interfered in a presidential election, and have pushed the nation to the brink of some kind of civil war, while smearing and denouncing Trump and his supporters. Trump hasn’t leaked anything to the public. They have.

After 50 years in Washington, Biden owns the federal bureaucracy. The thoroughly corrupt Biden family and Biden regime use the power of federal law enforcement against their political opponents (“MAGA extremists,” pro-lifers, parents — all “white supremicists,” whatever that means), while the same investigators and prosecutors pull all punches, lie, censor, coverup, dismiss, play down, all the publicly known evidence (thank you FBI and IRS whistleblowers, Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan, and James Comer) of millions and millions of dollars in foreign government payoffs, bribes, influence-peddling, money laundering, and other sleazy Biden financial schemes, especially involving selling out to our biggest threat, communist China. We’ve a Manchurian president.

The whistleblowers have testified about obstruction, political interference, multiple underlying crimes, etc. They’ve been ignored by the corrupt media, personally attacked by the power-hungry Democrat Party, and punished by the Biden regime.AG Garland, corrupt to the core like most mob lawyers, has been caught perjuring himself before Congress and obstructing justice by claiming to not have interfered in the Hunter investigation when IRS whistleblowers say the prosecutor told them he did. And they’ve numerous witnesses and contemporaneous notes to back them up.

Garland has approved every sleazy investigative and prosecutorial tactic against Trump and “MAGA” Republicans, while trying to create a public image of the earnest judge. He’s a dangerous man with Stalinist characteristics.Garland has stonewalled appointing a special counsel to investigate his boss, Joe Biden, because he wants to smother with a political pillow Biden’s multiple criminal activities, that even involve our national security. He’s the man in charge of the Biden coverup and the Trump imprisonment effort.Garland appointed and unleashed the disgraced Jack Smith, known for Gestopo-like tactics, to pursue Biden’s political targets (especially “MAGA” Republicans) and his biggest threat and nemesis, Trump.

Smith was publicly admonished in an 8-0 Supreme Court decision for his abuse of power in a phony public corruption case brought against a former Republican governor. Garland saw that as a compelling credential.Garland, Biden, his operatives, the hopelessly corrupt media, and the Democrat Party are destroying our country right before our eyes. This latest prosecutorial leak of an audio clip to CNN, is further intended to poison a jury pool and deny the former president due process, as he was denied attorney-client privilege and the usual administrative processes afforded former presidents when leaving office.

To be clear, we know nothing about the context of the audio. Nothing. We are fed exactly two minutes via CNN, a favorite state-run media outlet. We know no more or no less than they tell us. And the multiple felonies committed by the regime in leaking the tape will be ignored. Felonies committed in pursuit of Trump are no longer felonies. The “justice system “ is dead. The Democrat Party owns the federal government.

It sounds like they are desperately trying to reinforce the shields of denial they've put up around themselves to avoid coping with the reality that Trump is in serious legal jeapordy, and not just from the national defense documents and obstruction case.

It's looking like two more shoes of criminal indictments are about to fall on Trump with both a federal and a state indictment for the fake electors scheme.

 

[FullMonte]

par for the course for a guy who took home classified docs, refused to give them back, stated he had the right to them, flaunted them, and now wants everyone to think he had the right.

Yeah...had the right to wave around building plans, and explain to the people in the room that a president can declassify things, but a person who is not president cannot.

At least that is what he, his legal team, and his friends at various media outlets are saying.

 

[superchuck500]

I just what to make sure we all understand that at a federal criminal trial, there’s only live witness testimony. That’s the rule. The witness is there in the flesh for the jury to see and weigh their credibility. The opposing party gets to cross examine the witness. This is the backbone of the criminal trial.

This rule of live trial testimony is so heavily favored that only when it is necessary to “preserve” testimony (because the person will truly be unavailable) will there be depositions. The witness has to testify before the jury barring extraordinary circumstances - so there is no basis for a deposition unless a material trial witness won't be able to testify. And this isn't because their kid has a soccer game or they have a trip planned to the beach. It's because they're dying or some other genuine unavailability.

And in the same vein, there’s no use of sworn statements or grand jury testimony in lieu of live trial testimony - it can only be introduced to “impeach” a witness (show that their prior sworn testimony is materially different than what they’re now saying at trial), otherwise it’s immaterial. The witness has to testify before the jury. Even with documentary evidence, it does not get admitted on its own. A qualified witness must appear, take the stand, and properly authenticate (provide the “foundation” for the evidence) the material so that it may be admitted.

There are other uses for sworn testimony and grand jury testimony - such as obtaining a search warrant or forming the package (bill of information, etc.) that supports the charges. But after arraignment, that testimony will not be used at trial. The witness that provided it will have to appear again at trial and be subject to direct and cross examination.

This is very different from civil litigation.

 

[Taurus]

"...classified information that is known to the public." He says.

What
The
Fork?

 

[DaveXA]

"...classified information that is known to the public." He says.

What
The
Fork?

Yeah, people who think that classified information that becomes public is no longer classified don't understand how declassification works.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I'm going to go on record here to say that I believe it is more likely than not that there will indeed be depositions in this Trump Criminal case. True, that is not the usual procedure. But just as true, this is far from a usual case.

I have several reasons for believing that, but I think it is better just to watch it play out and see whether I am correct or not.

 

[efil4]

I'm going to go on record here to say that I believe it is more likely than not that there will indeed be depositions in this Trump Criminal case. True, that is not the usual procedure. But just as true, this is far from a usual case.

I have several reasons for believing that, but I think it is better just to watch it play out and see whether I am correct or not.

receipted.

 

[efil4]

I just what to make sure we all understand that at a federal criminal trial, there’s only live witness testimony. That’s the rule. The witness is there in the flesh for the jury to see and weigh their credibility. The opposing party gets to cross examine the witness. This is the backbone of the criminal trial.

This rule of live trial testimony is so heavily favored that only when it is necessary to “preserve” testimony (because the person will truly be unavailable) will there be depositions. The witness has to testify before the jury barring extraordinary circumstances - so there is no basis for a deposition unless a material trial witness won't be able to testify. And this isn't because their kid has a soccer game or they have a trip planned to the beach. It's because they're dying or some other genuine unavailability.

And in the same vein, there’s no use of sworn statements or grand jury testimony in lieu of live trial testimony - it can only be introduced to “impeach” a witness (show that their prior sworn testimony is materially different than what they’re now saying at trial), otherwise it’s immaterial. The witness has to testify before the jury. Even with documentary evidence, it does not get admitted on its own. A qualified witness must appear, take the stand, and properly authenticate (provide the “foundation” for the evidence) the material so that it may be admitted.

There are other uses for sworn testimony and grand jury testimony - such as obtaining a search warrant or forming the package (bill of information, etc.) that supports the charges. But after arraignment, that testimony will not be used at trial. The witness that provided it will have to appear again at trial and be subject to direct and cross examination.

This is very different from civil litigation.

I'm going to go on record here to say that I believe it is more likely than not that there will indeed be depositions in this Trump Criminal case. True, that is not the usual procedure. But just as true, this is far from a usual case.

I have several reasons for believing that, but I think it is better just to watch it play out and see whether I am correct or not.

The last thing the Trump defense wants is the inability to cross-examine the witness.

and to make sure we are clear on this, there are roughly 84 witnesses. Not all may be called to testify, but when you say "depositions" do you mean 2? 5? 8? more?

 

[Snarky Sack]

The last thing the Trump defense wants is the inability to cross-examine the witness.

I believe that in a deposition there is indeed cross examination. Maybe it isn't called that in a deposition, but lawyers from both sides are allowed to ask questions. @superchuck500 is welcome to confirm or refute that if he likes.

and to make sure we are clear on this, there are roughly 84 witnesses. Not all may be called to testify, but when you say "depositions" do you mean 2? 5? 8? more?

That will be up to the lawyers on each side, and to the judge. I don't see the judge refusing to allow depositions if they are requested by either side. The reason I say that is that the judge would not want a situation in which she refused a deposition and then later something happened to the witness. That would certainly be grounds for one side or the other to demand a mistrial.

I further predict that each side will hint darkly that they need to deposition a witness before something happens to that witness, to imply the other side might do something to that witness.

I say that last part mainly for fun. The more detailed predictions get, the less likely they will exactly come true. I stand by the more simple there will be depositions in this case, though.