Trump Indictment ( includes NY AG and Fed documents case ) (1 Viewer)

[SteveSBrickNJ]

Former President D. Trump has been indicted by a New York Grand Jury. There will be much to talk about on this topic because this is just the first step in a lengthy process.
Possibly it is worthy of its own thread here rather than posting about Trump's indictment in already existing threads?
*
This 3/31/23 story might get the ball rolling....
*

Manhattan’s DA wanted a Friday Trump arrest. Trump’s team said no.

Secret Service needed more time to prepare, according to the ex-president’s legal team.

www.yahoo.com

 

[coldseat]

If 99% of people charged got convicted, then I say that Trump's case is one in a thousand, or one on ten thousand, or simply one standing alone as far as documented prosecutorial and investigative misconduct, extreme bias and political motivation. Not my opinion on those. Documented fact.

That is absolutely your opinion (or those of the people you listen too). It's not documented fact at all.

In fact, the record shows that there was extreme prosecutorial discretion and a purposeful slow pace to the investigation so that to give Trump every opportunity to not find himself indicted for these crimes. But he chose to commit these crimes knowingly and willingly and now finds himself indicted. This is all on Trump and nobody else.

 

[superchuck500]

No but if others are free to speculate I'm not sure why it's an issue if I do it. Obviously, I'm not claiming any psychic powers.

Trump will certainly try.

Suppose he pardons himself from Mar a Lago, jumps in the infamous "Beast" and drives to the WH. How would that be undone?

Why would he pardon himself in Florida? He would become president at the inauguration in Washington and be in the White House. It would most likely be one of the first things he does.

It could only be undone in court - but the Supreme Court could certainly rule that it is unconstitutional. That wouldn’t happen overnight so the pardon would be effective for some time. Then there’s also the question of who has standing to even challenge it. Certainly DOJ has standing but Trump would make sure to appoint an AG that has pledged not to challenge it. Someone else would have to meet the standing burden.

And of course the Court could simply say that pardon is a discretionary political power of president and the only oversight is impeachment. So just because there is substantial legal doubt that the pardon power was ever conceived to be used by the president for himself (Nixon’s OLC even wrote a memo saying no, it can’t), there are certainly scenarios where it becomes effective simply by lack of power to challenge it to actually get that ruling, or the lack of will of the Court to rule on it (which is the same as saying he can do it).

It’s classic Trump, he’s done it his whole life. Do what you want even if it’s outside of the lines and fight it as hard as long as you can with power and process - the fact that your conduct is unprecedented only makes it less likely to have consequences.

 

[Lapaz]

That is absolutely your opinion (or those of the people you listen too). It's not documented fact at all.

In fact, the record shows that there was extreme prosecutorial discretion and a purposeful slow pace to the investigation so that to give Trump every opportunity to not find himself indicted for these crimes. But he chose to commit these crimes knowingly and willingly and now finds himself indicted. This is all on Trump and nobody else.

Yes, and the government also gave Trump a tremendous amount of deference. The moment Trump was informed that he improperly possessed Presidential Records, he should've only had days to return them, and then he could've subsequently challenged the validity later. Possessing Presidential Records isn't necessarily a security breach, but it can be. When breaches are suspected in my organization, they lock everything down, and then assess things to evaluate if a breach has occurred, and if so what to do to reduce the risk of further breaches. They didn't lock things down at Mara Largo. The government let operations continue as normal there, and just respectfully requested that the documents be returned. It wasn't until Trump finally turned over some documents a year after leaving office that the Archives realized that Trump had possessed classified documents, and that a breach had likely occurred. The National Archives knew Trump had Presidential Records, but they didn't know Trump possessed classified documents for over a year, but Trump knew. Normal citizens wouldn't be granted that type of discretion and deference. If that had happened to a normal citizen, it is likely that their homes would've been raided soon thereafter to check for additional documents and to investigate possible breaches.

The National Archives' first request to Trump was in May 2021, and Trump didn't turn over any documents until January 2022, and that batch included 197 classified documents, yet he still had many more. 38 more were turned over in June 2022, but the FBI had to conduct a search to retrieve the last 102 in August 2022. No one should keep classified documents, especially TS/SCI documents, for weeks, much less months and years in insecure places. He mishandled such documents for a year, before turning any over. Trump was reckless, cavalier, and deceitful with and about those documents, and he obstructed justice. I wouldn't be surprised if he still possessed some classified documents. Trump is dangerous to our national security.

A timeline of events leading to Donald Trump's indictment in the classified documents case

The 49-page federal indictment of former President Donald Trump lays out a stunning timeline of events, detailing allegations that he not only mishandled sensitive material, but also took steps to hide records and impede investigators.

apnews.com

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Just like when he got granted the Special Master, that was supposed to clear him, then the Special master facepalmed at how bad it was for Trump. The same will happen at every single turn he makes to get out of it from this judge..

 

[Huntn]

Why would he pardon himself in Florida? He would become president at the inauguration in Washington and be in the White House. It would most likely be one of the first things he does.

It could only be undone in court - but the Supreme Court could certainly rule that it is unconstitutional. That wouldn’t happen overnight so the pardon would be effective for some time. Then there’s also the question of who has standing to even challenge it. Certainly DOJ has standing but Trump would make sure to appoint an AG that has pledged not challenge it. Someone else would have to meet the standing burden.

And of course the Court could simply say that pardon is a discretionary political power of president and the only oversight is impeachment. So just because there is substantial legal doubt that the pardon power was ever conceived to be used by the president for himself (Nixon’s OLC even wrote a memo saying no, it can’t), there are certainly scenarios where it becomes effective simply by lack of power to challenge it to actually get that ruling, or the lack of will of the Court to rule on it (which is the same as saying he can do it).

It’s classic Trump, he’s done it his whole life. Do what you want even if it’s outside of the lines and fight it as hard as long as you can with power and process - the fact that your conduct is unprecedented only makes it less likely to have consequences.

Trump has always been a reality alchemist. The million $ question is does he actually see his reality in a transmutable mentally ill way, or thinks he is so brilliant, good at convincing and fooling the lessers surrounding him. For myself, his ability to bring out into the sunlight, the millions susceptible to his charms is down right terrifying. It’s like discovering your nation is infested with a bunch of vampires or closet Nazis scheming to dismantle the Republic and put a warlord in charge.

 

[MT15]

I found this opinion interesting:

 

[superchuck500]

The first phase of discovery documents have been released to Trump’s legal team. DOJ is not going to slow walk this. They will go as fast as they legally can with such an open and shut case.

Just reading this government response regarding the documents. Indeed it shows that they were prepared to deliver the material expeditiously. There's another aspect of it as well - the government indicates that it has delivered material that it could have otherwise objected to as non-discoverable.

@Snarky Sack had suggested in our discussion about discovery that we could perhaps expect DOJ to be less than forthcoming about the material . . . I think that when the prosecution believes their case is strong that the additional material doesn't harm their case in any way, go ahead and provide it rather than risk a discovery dispute. Keep it on a prompt schedule and preclude the defense from alleging that the government is hiding the ball.

Response to Standing Discovery Order – #30 in United States v. Trump (S.D. Fla., 9:23-cr-80101) – CourtListener.com

First RESPONSE to Standing Discovery Order by USA as to Donald J. Trump, Waltine Nauta (Edelstein, Julie) (Entered: 06/21/2023)

www.courtlistener.com

 

[Snarky Sack]

Why would he pardon himself in Florida? He would become president at the inauguration in Washington and be in the White House. It would most likely be one of the first things he does.

I should have explained that pardoning himself in Florida would only happen if he were confined or under house arrest. I seriously doubt he would be confined. But house is possible if he is ever found guilty..

They could swear him in at mar-a-lago, in a quick ceremony with just the Chief Justice and a few selected dignitaries. Then go to DC for the inauguration and ceremonial swearing in.

Of course all this is piling what ifs on what ifs. I seriously doubt that the trial would be over by Inauguration Day unless the doj drops the charges or there is a plea bargain to something so minor that Trump would just roll his eyes and say okay.

It could only be undone in court - but the Supreme Court could certainly rule that it is unconstitutional. That wouldn’t happen overnight so the pardon would be effective for some time. Then there’s also the question of who has standing to even challenge it.

All very good points!

Certainly DOJ has standing but Trump would make sure to appoint an AG that has pledged not to challenge it. Someone else would have to meet the standing burden.

You seem pretty sure about the doj having standing to object to a self-pardon. So I'm not arguing, just asking.

Is there a precedent for that? I've never heard a precedent of prosecutors objecting to any pardon. I can't remember any pardon ever being successfully objected to. I'm not saying it never happened, I'm just saying I don't know and you seem, to so I'm asking.

And of course the Court could simply say that pardon is a discretionary political power of president and the only oversight is impeachment.

That is what I would imagine them saying. It's not like it's a hyperpartisan court out to get trump.

So just because there is substantial legal doubt that the pardon power was ever conceived to be used by the president for himself (Nixon’s OLC even wrote a memo saying no, it can’t), there are certainly scenarios where it becomes effective simply by lack of power to challenge it to actually get that ruling, or the lack of will of the Court to rule on it (which is the same as saying he can do it).

I'll take a look for that Nixon office of legal counsel letter.

It’s classic Trump, he’s done it his whole life. Do what you want even if it’s outside of the lines and fight it as hard as long as you can with power and process - the fact that your conduct is unprecedented only makes it less likely to have consequences.

Yes, there is much truth in that. I wish that Trump had been left alone to use his power for the good of the United States such as securing our border. He was very successful at slowing the flow across the border, and very effective at improving the economy. But the combination of the pandemic and the investigations turned his second two years into disasters for the country.

 

[MT15]

Sack, your POV is certainly favorable to Trump in every way. I have a different opinion about why the last two years of his term were a disaster.

Imagine if he had chosen to truly lead during the pandemic, instead of minimizing it. He lied purposefully to the American people, openly worried about the effect of the pandemic on his “ratings” as he called them, undercut medical advice. The only good thing he did was back the correct vaccines and let his medical people take the lead there.

He would have been in the same position as Bush II after 9-11 - declare the virus a common enemy, unite the American people to work to defeat a common foe. He would have been re-elected, IMO. But he couldn’t do that. He’s incapable of true leadership, all he’s capable of is his own self-interest.

 

[Lapaz]

Sack, your POV is certainly favorable to Trump in every way. I have a different opinion about why the last two years of his term were a disaster.

Imagine if he had chosen to truly lead during the pandemic, instead of minimizing it. He lied purposefully to the American people, openly worried about the effect of the pandemic on his “ratings” as he called them, undercut medical advice. The only good thing he did was back the correct vaccines and let his medical people take the lead there.

He would have been in the same position as Bush II after 9-11 - declare the virus a common enemy, unite the American people to work to defeat a common foe. He would have been re-elected, IMO. But he couldn’t do that. He’s incapable of true leadership, all he’s capable of is his own self-interest.

Exactly. If he had led the country during the pandemic, it also probably would’ve resulted in hundreds of thousands fewer deaths. Considering the USA led with vaccine development, it’s atrocious that we have the 16th worst death rate in the world. We should’ve been one of the best in the world, but that would’ve taken leadership.

COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Daily and weekly updated statistics tracking the number of COVID-19 cases, recovered, and deaths. Historical data with cumulative charts, graphs, and updates.

www.worldometers.info

I don’t know if he would’ve been re-elected, because his horrible leadership during the pandemic wasn’t his only failure. He was ruining most of the executive branch, and our relationship with our allies. There was still plenty of reasons to vote against him, but he certainly would’ve had a much better chance.

 

[MT15]

Yeah, I wasn’t trying to minimize his other failures, but I do think if he had successfully united the country to fight the virus, people would have voted for him because they wouldn’t want to change leadership in the middle of a crisis. He’s just incapable of doing anything like that, though.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Yeah, I wasn’t trying to minimize his other failures, but I do think if he had successfully united the country to fight the virus, people would have voted for him because they wouldn’t want to change leadership in the middle of a crisis. He’s just incapable of doing anything like that, though.

That is because he has no interest is serving ALL Americans! Had he even feigned such interest, he would have not energized soooooo many to vote solely against him.

 

[Maxp]

Trump threw paper towels to Puerto Ricans after hurricane Maria devastated the island. He couldn't handle a single Hurricane in a American territory. Zero chance he would handle COVID appropriately.

 

[MT15]

I remember distinctly thinking in the summer / fall of 2019 that we only had one year to go and hadn’t had any really serious consequences from Trump’s lack of leadership or integrity. And then God laughed….. Trump was so completely out of his depth and lost. And completely uncaring as well. It was so obvious he couldn’t handle a crisis of any sort.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Just reading this government response regarding the documents. Indeed it shows that they were prepared to deliver the material expeditiously. There's another aspect of it as well - the government indicates that it has delivered material that it could have otherwise objected to as non-discoverable.

@Snarky Sack had suggested in our discussion about discovery that we could perhaps expect DOJ to be less than forthcoming about the material . . . I think that when the prosecution believes their case is strong that the additional material doesn't harm their case in any way, go ahead and provide it rather than risk a discovery dispute. Keep it on a prompt schedule and preclude the defense from alleging that the government is hiding the ball.

Response to Standing Discovery Order – #30 in United States v. Trump (S.D. Fla., 9:23-cr-80101) – CourtListener.com

First RESPONSE to Standing Discovery Order by USA as to Donald J. Trump, Waltine Nauta (Edelstein, Julie) (Entered: 06/21/2023)

www.courtlistener.com

That part in red is why we are destined to talk past each other on this particular topic. You are willing to take the government's word that it is turning over all required documents, but I am not. They have been caught in too many lies and too much corruption in their seven year pursuit of Trump for me to expect that for some reason they have now changed.

When Team Trump tells the judge that they have not gotten all of the required evidence and asks for specific items, and complains about redactions that render a "discovered" document useless, I will say "I knew they government would keep covering up" and you will say "Team Trump is lying again!" Nothing wrong with you or I being like that, I'm just saying that we are looking at the same events through entirely different lenses.

Keep in mind that the government is required to turn over not only material it will use in trying to prove Trump guilty, but any exculpatory evidence as well. They may not hide the former since it might lead to evidence being thrown out, but they will surely hide the latter.

So, let me ask a slightly different question:

What has the DOJ been doing for the ten months between the raid at Mar-a-Lago and the indictment?

 

[superchuck500]

That part in red is why we are destined to talk past each other on this particular topic. You are willing to take the government's word that it is turning over all required documents, but I am not. They have been caught in too many lies and too much corruption in their seven year pursuit of Trump for me to expect that for some reason they have now changed.

When Team Trump tells the judge that they have not gotten all of the required evidence and asks for specific items, and complains about redactions that render a "discovered" document useless, I will say "I knew they government would keep covering up" and you will say "Team Trump is lying again!" Nothing wrong with you or I being like that, I'm just saying that we are looking at the same events through entirely different lenses.

Keep in mind that the government is required to turn over not only material it will use in trying to prove Trump guilty, but any exculpatory evidence as well. They may not hide the former since it might lead to evidence being thrown out, but they will surely hide the latter.

So, let me ask a slightly different question:

What has the DOJ been doing for the ten months between the raid at Mar-a-Lago and the indictment?

Um, sorting through the seized material, preparing subpoenas, taking interviews, preparing grand jury information, convening a grand jury, preparing the indictment.

Your conviction that the government will “surely” be hiding exculpatory evidence is just silly. Everybody knows what happened here - what is exculpatory? It could be exculpatory if Trump had declassified the material when he was president but we know that didn’t happen. This is such a simple case about unlawful retention of covered material, refusal to return that material, deliberate obstruction of the effort to recover the material, and misuse of the material.

This idea that there’s some batch of exculpatory evidence the government is hiding is ridiculous.

 

[MT15]

You cannot have a fruitful discussion with someone who sees conspiracies in something like this. Facts are discounted. The very assertion that the FBI is accused of having carried on a seven year crusade to “get” Trump ignores verifiable facts and the outcomes of multiple investigations.

It relieves Trump of all responsibility he bears for any of the events of the past 7 years. It ignores the deference shown to Trump by the FBI at various times, starting with the 2016 campaign, and continuing right up until they executed the search warrant. It ignores the fact that Trump has been scrutinized by his own Justice Department and a Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee. Both the Mueller Report and the Senate Intelligence Report were highly critical of Trump and his campaign‘s actions. Neither exonerated him, as his acolytes have been claiming.

It ignores the testimony of multiple members of his own administration. If someone chooses to ignore the reports from the IG investigation into the FBI and even Durham, who was set in motion specifically to find the huge conspiracy that these Trump adherents swear exists, then how can anyone have fact-based discussions with that person? It isn’t possible. Neither the IG, whose name escapes me at the moment, nor Durham found the type of conspiracy that Trump adherents believe exists. And Durham was willing and really wanted to find wrongdoing - he just couldn’t do it.

At some point after all of this, the rational mind says - maybe there isn’t a great conspiracy to “get” Trump. Maybe Trump‘s actions have drawn this scrutiny from both political allies and foes. Maybe he isn’t telling the truth in all these situations. It’s really sad that 70% of the country is waiting on 30% of the country to have the truth dawn on them about someone who is essentially a conman. And while we wait, the 30% are trying to tear our country apart with their delusions. Rather than examine their own perceptions, they would rather believe the worst about the rest of the country.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

You cannot have a fruitful discussion with someone who sees conspiracies in something like this. Facts are discounted. The very assertion that the FBI is accused of having carried on a seven year crusade to “get” Trump ignores verifiable facts and the outcomes of multiple investigations.

It relieves Trump of all responsibility he bears for any of the events of the past 7 years. It ignores the deference shown to Trump by the FBI at various times, starting with the 2016 campaign, and continuing right up until they executed the search warrant. It ignores the fact that Trump has been scrutinized by his own Justice Department and a Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee. Both the Mueller Report and the Senate Intelligence Report were highly critical of Trump and his campaign‘s actions. Neither exonerated him, as his acolytes have been claiming.

It ignores the testimony of multiple members of his own administration. If someone chooses to ignore the reports from the IG investigation into the FBI and even Durham, who was set in motion specifically to find the huge conspiracy that these Trump adherents swear exists, then how can anyone have fact-based discussions with that person? It isn’t possible. Neither the IG, whose name escapes me at the moment, nor Durham found the type of conspiracy that Trump adherents believe exists. And Durham was willing and really wanted to find wrongdoing - he just couldn’t do it.

At some point after all of this, the rational mind says - maybe there isn’t a great conspiracy to “get” Trump. Maybe Trump‘s actions have drawn this scrutiny from both political allies and foes. Maybe he isn’t telling the truth in all these situations. It’s really sad that 70% of the country is waiting on 30% of the country to have the truth dawn on them about someone who is essentially a conman. And while we wait, the 30% are trying to tear our country apart with their delusions. Rather than examine their own perceptions, they would rather believe the worst about the rest of the country.

And not care that they are burning it all down in the process. Those that purport to be America First and desire to Make America Great Again are actively hastening the process of destroying the country.