Trump Indictment ( includes NY AG and Fed documents case ) (2 Viewers)

[SteveSBrickNJ]

Former President D. Trump has been indicted by a New York Grand Jury. There will be much to talk about on this topic because this is just the first step in a lengthy process.
Possibly it is worthy of its own thread here rather than posting about Trump's indictment in already existing threads?
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This 3/31/23 story might get the ball rolling....
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Manhattan’s DA wanted a Friday Trump arrest. Trump’s team said no.

Secret Service needed more time to prepare, according to the ex-president’s legal team.

www.yahoo.com

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

...I also suspect that the most sensitive documents would not have been copied.

When talking about documents that are classified as S/TS SCI they are not, per se, they are reproduced and each reproduction comes with a control number. Those reproductions become the responsibility of a "records custodian" and that person would require a signature from the recipient of the "copy". In essence, they are serially controlled. Once a document is classified, it becomes the property of The United States, not an individual person to do with that they will.

The Executive Branch is not under compliance when it comes to securing classified records and I can understand it can be burdensome, however, if they don't clean-up their security manager's custodial issues, we will continue to have lost docs. I say lost because they had no idea that both Pence and Biden has classified docs in their possession.

I've asked the following before:

Why Did The United States Suspect Trump Had Missing Classified Documents In The First Place?

 

[FullMonte]

When talking about documents that are classified as S/TS SCI they are not, per se, they are reproduced and each reproduction comes with a control number. Those reproductions become the responsibility of a "records custodian" and that person would require a signature from the recipient of the "copy". In essence, they are serially controlled. Once a document is classified, it becomes the property of The United States, not an individual person to do with that they will.

The Executive Branch is not under compliance when it comes to securing classified records and I can understand it can be burdensome, however, if they don't clean-up their security manager's custodial issues, we will continue to have lost docs. I say lost because they had no idea that both Pence and Biden has classified docs in their possession.

I've asked the following before:

Why Did The United States Suspect They Had Missing Classified Documents In The First Place?

Suspect who had classified documents? Biden and Pence? The US didn’t. Biden’s team was clearing out an office that he was no longer using and found some documents with classification markings. They reported them to NARA and turned them over as soon as was possible (the next morning, I think). Once the story broke, Pence had his team conduct searches of his office(s) and residence.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Suspect who had classified documents? Biden and Pence? The US didn’t. Biden’s team was clearing out an office that he was no longer using and found some documents with classification markings. They reported them to NARA and turned them over as soon as was possible (the next morning, I think). Once the story broke, Pence had his team conduct searches of his office(s) and residence.

Trump.

My bad, that was a question I asked earlier regarding their initial inquiry into Trump's records. After it was discovered that Biden and Pence had classified records in their possession, I wondered what piqued their interest into Trump's missing records. Did something happen to initiate some sort of audit of secure records from his time in office?

 

[superchuck500]

How many days of criminal trials would you say someone needs to be qualified for this case?

“Qualified” is a tricky term but I would say a judge needs to have substantial command of criminal procedure and the management of the criminal trial courtroom. I think that requires quite a bit of experience - a couple dozen is probably when a judge feels pretty comfortable with it. I don’t really know, I’m not a criminal lawyer and all judges are different people with different personalities and capabilities. For example, a fairly new judge who was prosecutor for 20 years will have a very quick learning curve based on that experience. A judge with no criminal trial history will have a much steeper curve.

Cannon was an AUSA for about six years but I don’t think she tried a case.

 

[Snarky Sack]

When talking about documents that are classified as S/TS SCI they are not, per se, they are reproduced and each reproduction comes with a control number. Those reproductions become the responsibility of a "records custodian" and that person would require a signature from the recipient of the "copy". In essence, they are serially controlled. Once a document is classified, it becomes the property of The United States, not an individual person to do with that they will.

Barring some rare example, a document that is classified started out as classified, and was always the property of the United States, ownership deriving from the government having bought the paper, computer and printer, or the servers for electronic documents.

Actually, I guess if a foreign document were to be acquired through espionage, it would need to be classified.

The Executive Branch is not under compliance when it comes to securing classified records and I can understand it can be burdensome, however, if they don't clean-up their security manager's custodial issues, we will continue to have lost docs. I say lost because they had no idea that both Pence and Biden has classified docs in their possession.

Yes, because, those procedures are for the mid level folk, and the military folk of all levels whose lives are about following regulations.

Presidents, VP's, SecStates, they are mostly people who have been in and out of the government all their lives, but never in a disciplined government organization like the military. I think it is notable that Neither of the Clintons, Biden, Trump, and Pence all have in common that they never served in the military.

They have all also taken a cavalier attitude toward classified information.

I've asked the following before:

Why Did The United States Suspect They Had Missing Classified Documents In The First Place?

If you mean Biden and Pence, the story is that their lawyers found them - and then the FBI found more after the lawyers completed the search.

Remind you of anybody?.

The timeline of events surrounding the discovery of documents at Biden's former office and residence

Here is a look at some of the key events surrounding the discovery of government documents in Mr. Biden's possession.

www.cbsnews.com

Washington — Revelations that documents bearing classification markings were found at President Biden's former office and his Wilmington, Delaware, house has prompted scrutiny of the president and the appointment of a special counsel by Attorney General Merrick Garland.

The White House confirmed in early January that roughly 10 documents dating back to the Obama administration were discovered by Mr. Biden's personal lawyers at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement on Nov. 2, and then disclosed that a "small number" were found in the garage at the president's home in Wilmington after his lawyers searched the locations where files from his vice-presidential office may have been shipped following his tenure in the Obama White House.

A subsequent search of Mr. Biden's Wilmington home by FBI investigators, conducted with his consent on Jan. 20, turned up six additional items with classified markings, his lawyers and Justice Department officials said.

New classified document found in FBI search of Pence home

The FBI has discovered an additional document with classified markings at former Vice President Mike Pence’s Indiana home.

apnews.com

WASHINGTON (AP) — The FBI discovered an additional document with classified markings at former Vice President Mike Pence ’s Indiana home during a search Friday, following the discovery by his lawyers last month of sensitive government documents there.

Pence adviser Devin O’Malley said the Department of Justice completed “a thorough and unrestricted search of five hours” and removed “one document with classified markings and six additional pages without such markings that were not discovered in the initial review by the vice president’s counsel.”

The search, described as consensual after negotiations between Pence’s representatives and the Justice Department, comes after he was subpoenaed in a separate investigation into efforts by former President Donald Trump to overturn the 2020 election and as Pence contemplates a Republican bid for the White House in 2024.
So, yes. The government did not know they were missing. I don't know how Biden transported the documents from the Senate SCIF to his home. I'm guessing by the simple method of putting them into his briefcase and emptying them out into his desk and eventually into a box that found its way into his garage. Perhaps he meant to shred or burn them and never got around to it.

This is how Pence ended up with documents in his home:

The FBI had already taken possession of what Pence’s lawyer previously described as a “small number of documents” that had been “inadvertently boxed and transported” to Pence’s Indiana home at the end of the Trump administration.

Woe-Kaaaay . . .

How the government "found out" that documents were missing that Trump had is another story that I'll tell later on.

 

[DaveXA]

Suspect who had classified documents? Biden and Pence? The US didn’t. Biden’s team was clearing out an office that he was no longer using and found some documents with classification markings. They reported them to NARA and turned them over as soon as was possible (the next morning, I think). Once the story broke, Pence had his team conduct searches of his office(s) and residence.

Yeah, and despite all of the rules and regulations and safeguards in place, classified documents do occasionally get left behind, misplaced, mishandled and such. More often than not they're not nefarious in nature, but still, those who are supposed to be in custody of classified documents still are responsible for the proper handling or transferring to the correct office (in this case NARA) if no longer needed.

It goes without saying that in Trump's case, he didn't return the documents in a timely manner and shared the content of classified docs with individuals who didn't have the required clearance. Allegedly anyway.

I suspect if all Trump did was stall returning the docs, this doesn't turn into the circus it has. Trump has no one to blame other than himself.

I'm preaching to the choir tho. Lol.

 

[FullMonte]

Yeah, and despite all of the rules and regulations and safeguards in place, classified documents do occasionally get left behind, misplaced, mishandled and such. More often than not they're not nefarious in nature, but still, those who are supposed to be in custody of classified documents still are responsible for the proper handling or transferring to the correct office (in this case NARA) if no longer needed.

It goes without saying that in Trump's case, he didn't return the documents in a timely manner and shared the content of classified docs with individuals who didn't have the required clearance.

I suspect if all Trump did was stall returning the docs, this doesn't turn into the circus it has. Trump has no one to blame other than himself.

I'm preaching to the choir tho. Lol.

Yeah..and something I mentioned (I think it was in another thread here about this)...A lot of people don't understand what "classified documents" means. They think classified documents are something that was printed out on a printer, with nice big headers at the top saying it's classifed and at what level, and then immediately placed in a red folder identifying it as classified and at what level.

While that is often the case, there is another type of classified document (and from what I've read, it sounds like a lot of what Biden and Pence had fell into this category) and they are documents that are either derivatively classified or aggregately classified. For example, let's say that Biden (as VP) was scheduled to have a phone call with the president of France. Biden, Obama, SecState, and several experts on all things french would sit down and discuss what Biden would talk about during this phone call, what concessions he could make, what requests he would make, etc. During the meeting, Biden would be writing down notes on a legal pad about these things. Those handwritten notes would likely be classified at that point, and would need to have proper headers added. Biden would then carry that legal pad with him into the comm room where he would have his phone call. The thought that during the period after the call, while he was discussing the call with advisers, Obama, SecState, etc...that the notepad might become an afterthought and get tossed into his briefcase isn't all that crazy. I'm not saying it's ok to handle classified in that manner, but just pointing out how easy it can be to accidentally take some classified with you in certain instances.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Yes, because, those procedures are for the mid level folk, and the military folk of all levels whose lives are about following regulations.

That's not how any of that works! You just said that those citizens are above the law, regulations are governed by laws. Guess LTC Birchum learned that lesson the hard way.

As for you last, I already clarified that I was speaking about Trump.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

While that is often the case, there is another type of classified document (and from what I've read, it sounds like a lot of what Biden and Pence had fell into this category) and they are documents that are either derivatively classified or aggregately classified. For example, let's say that Biden (as VP) was scheduled to have a phone call with the president of France. Biden, Obama, SecState, and several experts on all things french would sit down and discuss what Biden would talk about during this phone call, what concessions he could make, what requests he would make, etc. During the meeting, Biden would be writing down notes on a legal pad about these things. Those handwritten notes would likely be classified at that point, and would need to have proper headers added. Biden would then carry that legal pad with him into the comm room where he would have his phone call. The thought that during the period after the call, while he was discussing the call with advisers, Obama, SecState, etc...that the notepad might become an afterthought and get tossed into his briefcase isn't all that crazy. I'm not saying it's ok to handle classified in that manner, but just pointing out how easy it can be to accidentally take some classified with you in certain instances.

And what you described here is what the BUTTER EMAILS folks fail to/don't want to understand.

 

[Lapaz]

How do you know that he kept agency documents? What were they? Describe them in as much detail as you know.

Link me so I can check your work?

Read the indictment. There are 31 documents listed.

 

[FullMonte]

And what you described here is what the BUTTER EMAILS folks fail to/don't want to understand.

LOL...exactly. I seem to recall that some of the "classified emails" were simply copies of her calendar showing upcoming appointments with various individuals.

 

[FullMonte]

“Qualified” is a tricky term but I would say a judge needs to have substantial command of criminal procedure and the management of the criminal trial courtroom. I think that requires quite a bit of experience - a couple dozen is probably when a judge feels pretty comfortable with it. I don’t really know, I’m not a criminal lawyer and all judges are different people with different personalities and capabilities. For example, a fairly new judge who was prosecutor for 20 years will have a very quick learning curve based on that experience. A judge with no criminal trial history will have a much steeper curve.

Cannon was an AUSA for about six years but I don’t think she tried a case.

Not to mention it's a very high profile case, so the judge will need to be able to handle that and control that atmosphere (even though it won't be televised). Look back to the OJ Simpson trial, even though I was in my 20's, it seemed to me like Judge Ito was in over his head in that one.

 

[FullMonte]

I saw an interesting analysis last night. It basically pointed out that Trump, like every criminal defendant has the absolute right not to testify, and the jury is not make any inference about a defendant not testifying. One would think that Trump's lawyers would go as far as handcuffing Trump to a chair and taping his mouth shut to keep him from testifying.

So, what happens when the jury hears Donald Trump, himself, admit to the crimes he is accused of?

In his rally last night, Trump made several statements saying that he had the right to keep the documents that he had, and that he had them stored neatly before the FBI threw them everywhere. Those public statements will almost certainly be admissible in the trial. So, when the prosecution plays a video, where they select only the portions they want to play, and hears Trump admit to the things he is accused of doing...what does Trump do?

 

[DaveXA]

Yeah..and something I mentioned (I think it was in another thread here about this)...A lot of people don't understand what "classified documents" means. They think classified documents are something that was printed out on a printer, with nice big headers at the top saying it's classifed and at what level, and then immediately placed in a red folder identifying it as classified and at what level.

While that is often the case, there is another type of classified document (and from what I've read, it sounds like a lot of what Biden and Pence had fell into this category) and they are documents that are either derivatively classified or aggregately classified. For example, let's say that Biden (as VP) was scheduled to have a phone call with the president of France. Biden, Obama, SecState, and several experts on all things french would sit down and discuss what Biden would talk about during this phone call, what concessions he could make, what requests he would make, etc. During the meeting, Biden would be writing down notes on a legal pad about these things. Those handwritten notes would likely be classified at that point, and would need to have proper headers added. Biden would then carry that legal pad with him into the comm room where he would have his phone call. The thought that during the period after the call, while he was discussing the call with advisers, Obama, SecState, etc...that the notepad might become an afterthought and get tossed into his briefcase isn't all that crazy. I'm not saying it's ok to handle classified in that manner, but just pointing out how easy it can be to accidentally take some classified with you in certain instances.

Great point. And as you illustrated, it's complicated. People don't understand that 2 completely innocuous documents separately might be considered unclassified, but put them together and it could end up being two data points in a merged document that would then warrant whatever classification it should be, and in that case the headers and markings would need to be added.

 

[Snarky Sack]

That's not how any of that works! You just said that those citizens are above the law, regulations are governed by laws. Guess LTC Birchum learned that lesson the hard way.

As for you last, I already clarified that I was speaking about Trump.

Yes, while I was typing the reply that now seems to so offend you.

 

[FullMonte]

Great point. And as you illustrated, it's complicated. People don't understand that 2 completely innocuous documents separately might be considered unclassified, but put them together and it could end up being two data points in a merged document that would then warrant whatever classification it should be, and in that case the headers and markings would need to be added.

Exactly. The example we were always given is: "I'm going away for two months" is not in any way controlled information, nor is someone else saying "I'm going to Guam," or a third person saying "I'm leaving on Jun 30." But, together, "We are leaving on June 30 to go to Guam for two months" could be controlled/classified.

 

[Snarky Sack]

I saw an interesting analysis last night. It basically pointed out that Trump, like every criminal defendant has the absolute right not to testify, and the jury is not make any inference about a defendant not testifying. One would think that Trump's lawyers would go as far as handcuffing Trump to a chair and taping his mouth shut to keep him from testifying.

He'll testify though, if it ever gets to trial. Because of course the jury will make an inference about the defendant not testifying. It's a fantasy that jurors only pay attention to what the judge instructs them to pay attention to. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" only prompts people to go yank it open.

So, what happens when the jury hears Donald Trump, himself, admit to the crimes he is accused of?

In his rally last night, Trump made several statements saying that he had the right to keep the documents that he had, and that he had them stored neatly before the FBI threw them everywhere. Those public statements will almost certainly be admissible in the trial. So, when the prosecution plays a video, where they select only the portions they want to play, and hears Trump admit to the things he is accused of doing...what does Trump do?

Ha!

That would be awesome if the prosecution did that. It would open up the entire speech for the defense to put in - during the prosecution's case!

Have you seen it? I linked it somewhere. People who may even be on the jury spontaneously burst into the "Happy Birthday" song. It's today so not too late to wish him well on Truthsocial.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Read the indictment. There are 31 documents listed.

I want to know if YOU read it. That's why I asked you to describe them.