Trump Indictment ( includes NY AG and Fed documents case ) (3 Viewers)

[SteveSBrickNJ]

Former President D. Trump has been indicted by a New York Grand Jury. There will be much to talk about on this topic because this is just the first step in a lengthy process.
Possibly it is worthy of its own thread here rather than posting about Trump's indictment in already existing threads?
*
This 3/31/23 story might get the ball rolling....
*

Manhattan’s DA wanted a Friday Trump arrest. Trump’s team said no.

Secret Service needed more time to prepare, according to the ex-president’s legal team.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Snarky Sack]

Yep, he did it.

Then - again - I disagree with that.

I thought you couldn't read new york times articles

Normally I can't. I copied and pasted that from a previous post that I made before I tried to ready our NYT link. Maybe that was my one freebie article, since I started using this browser. I don't know.

And, perhaps, after investigating it for the second time, there simply wasn’t enough evidence to warrant charges.

Sessions Letter Shows DOJ Acted on Trump’s Authoritarian Demand to Investigate Clinton - American Oversight

American Oversight uncovered the signed directive from Sessions instructing a federal prosecutor to carry out Trump’s authoritarian demand to investigate Hillary Clinton.

www.americanoversight.org

"Perhaps."

 

[Optimus Prime]

He just says what we all should say, that justice should be blind and we should see what comes out based on the facts of the case.

you must not have seen what Republican responses to the indictment has been so far

Why would you say that?

Republicans saying justice is blind and we should see what comes out based on facts of the case

 

[superchuck500]

Superchuck500, I specifically said that it was the end of the beginning, not the beginning.

So, he is literally being prosecuted in federal court for the equivalent of an overdue library book. His lawyers will have a field day with that if it ever makes it in front of a jury.

You realize that that means that one of the questions the prosecution would have to ask in voir dire is "have you ever had an overdue library book?" I don't know how many preemptive strikes of jurors you get in federal court, but they will have use up several on that question alone.

We saw that that is worth in the Carter Page FISA warrant applications.

Overly dramatic. An overturned ruling is not a "beatdown." Did the current USSC give the past USSC a "beatdown" when it overturned Roe v. Wade? She won't be gun shy. Trump picks strong women, not people who melt over one ruling.

We'll see how in the world the come up with a judge that can be accepted as impartial when they are almost all highly partisan appointees by one side or the other. I agree that Cannon will not be the judge for long. That process of finding the right judge will be yet another delaying factor.

It's not like the OJ case where they said, "Hey, pick an Asian guy!" The judicial branch knows this case is a political hot potato, and they will not want to be burned. So they will be very careful and probably take a lot of time looking for an ideal judge that likely does not exist.

"That's it?" That sounds like plenty.

You may know more about the law than I, so I'll ask: Does Brady not apply somehow? You said the prosecution only has to provide the documents they will use. I always thought that they also had to provide any exculpatory evidence. That process alone would be a protracted fight.

Trump's lawyers will demand "everything," so they can "check to see if it has exculpatory evidence that the farging bastages are withholding." The prosecutors will say WTTE of "there IS no exculpatory evidence because he's GUILTY, Nyaah!" Then the fight will be on.

But you seem to know about it. How much time will it take for the prosecution and the defense to agree that the prosecution has turned over all that it needs? If the judge cuts off the debate on that topic with a ruling before they agree, how likely is the USSC to make an emergency ruling after putting the case on hold. Remember that the current USSC is often called "The Trump Court."

Yes, the testimony under oath was very one-sided, as always. The prosecution would love to only show Team Trump what it will use in court, but Team Trump will be entitled to see all of it. How long do you think it will take them to carefully go over all of that testimony?

Hard to predict exactly, but I think it is very predictable that Team Trump will take as long as possible.


Interesting. Most of the Trump opponents on here seem pretty sure she won't last. I agree, but you may be right. If Cannon stays, she won't make it harder for the prosecution, but she won't make it easier, either. I think most importantly to my point is that she will give Team Trump all the time they need. I think almost any judge will do that, though because they don't want to be accused of railroading Trump.

Nice post! I feel bad nit-picking in my first sentence, but I barely have time to defend what I do say, much less time to defend things I never said.

I never said you said it was the beginning. But you did indeed say that trump hasn’t made any “moves” yet - when he most certainly has and nearly all of them made things worse for himself.

The library book analogy is such junk that I’m not gonna validate it with a response - read the indictment.

Did you read the 11th Circuit’s decision on the Cannon order? It’s not simply overturning the district court (the notion that overturning Roe, a long-standing Supreme Court authority, based on constitutional principles is in the same vein is nonsense) - I’m talking about the actual text of the opinion where the panel of the supervisory court was extensively critical of Judge Cannon’s rationale and interpretation of the record. The opinion found that she was “undeterred by [a] lack of information” supporting a Trump claim (p. 14), made “unsupported conclusions” about harm (p. 16), and most expressly in the conclusion, the panel held that Judge Cannon’s finding of equitable jurisdiction was a “radical re-ordering of [federal] caselaw" and a violation of “bedrock separation of powers limitations.” Trust me, this is a beatdown. Not a reversal of longstanding authority with a different constitutional perspective but a specific condemnation of the exercise of authority and findings on the record made by this specific federal district judge.

https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/znvnbeggmvl/trump-ca11-2022-12-01.pdf

Legal observers were in wide agreement that it was indeed a lashing.



But yes, you’re right that my account of discovery didn’t include the prosecution’s obligation to provide exculpatory evidence. Good luck with that in this scenario.

 

[superchuck500]

Interesting.

Who'd you have in mind?

It would have to be the vice-president made president.

 

[brandon]

So, he is literally being prosecuted in federal court for the equivalent of an overdue library book.

The library book analogy is such junk that I’m not gonna validate it with a response - read the indictment.

Beat me to it.

 

[Snarky Sack]

Republicans saying justice is blind and we should see what comes out based on facts of the case

No, I get that Republicans say inappropriate things also. I wish there were some on this board so I could debate them also.

It would have to be the vice-president made president.

Now that would be an awesome moment in history! Trump takes office. Goes under anesthetic for hair plug surgery. While he's out, Nikki Haley pardons him.

How entertaining would be the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the unbiased media!

 

[SteveSBrickNJ]

GOP hopefuls who are NOT named "Trump" fall into three camps...
Details here....
*

The 2024 GOP Field Faces a Choice: Law and Order or Loyalty

The federal indictment of former President Donald Trump has left the Republican Party — and his rivals for the party’s nomination — with a stark choice between deferring to a system of law and order that has been central to the party’s identity for half a century or a more radical path of...

www.yahoo.com

 

[superchuck500]

Now that would be an awesome moment in history! Trump takes office. Goes under anesthetic for hair plug surgery. While he's out, Nikki Haley pardons him.

How entertaining would be the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the unbiased media!

It would be wild (really more pathetic and terrible than awesome, but) - not sure how the Court would handle that (a temporary contingency transfer) but another possibility could be that he resigns on the last day of the presidency and the VP now-president pardons him.

I also sort of think that he wouldn’t try it because he thinks he can beat the case anyway - because he always thinks he can, that’s how he got into this mess.

 

[MT15]

Comey had already dismissed the possibility of charges against Clinton. Trump, like a grown up, accepted that, and moved on.

This right here is why you have zero credibility as an honest participant in this discussion.

Meanwhile Trump is posting crazy shirt like this which will lead to violence. Nothing can excuse this behavior no matter how much you spin and tell lies.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Donald Trump's supporters are threatening war over the former president's indictment on espionage-related charges.

Republican lawmakers and politicians have responded to the indictment with incendiary rhetoric, while pro-Trump message boards have been ablaze with violent threats reminiscent of the online chatter before the Jan. 6 insurrection, reported Vice News.

“MAGA will make Waco look like a tea party,” said a user called 1776take2 on the pro-Trump forum The Donald. "I used to laugh when my mom said that she was afraid if she registered Republican she may be arrested one day. I’m not laughing any more. Just buying more ammo.”

A federal grand jury indicted Trump last week on 37 charges brought by special counsel Jack Smith, and some of the threats targeted the official who appointed him, attorney general Merrick Garland.

“America cannot allow this cowardly thug to destroy our democracy," wrote one Trump supporter on the forum. "This is what the Second Amendment was made for. Buy a gun or help organize your local militia today.”.............

MSN

 

[Incumbent]

Donald Trump's supporters are threatening war over the former president's indictment on espionage-related charges.

Republican lawmakers and politicians have responded to the indictment with incendiary rhetoric, while pro-Trump message boards have been ablaze with violent threats reminiscent of the online chatter before the Jan. 6 insurrection, reported Vice News.

“MAGA will make Waco look like a tea party,” said a user called 1776take2 on the pro-Trump forum The Donald. "I used to laugh when my mom said that she was afraid if she registered Republican she may be arrested one day. I’m not laughing any more. Just buying more ammo.”

A federal grand jury indicted Trump last week on 37 charges brought by special counsel Jack Smith, and some of the threats targeted the official who appointed him, attorney general Merrick Garland.

“America cannot allow this cowardly thug to destroy our democracy," wrote one Trump supporter on the forum. "This is what the Second Amendment was made for. Buy a gun or help organize your local militia today.”.............

MSN

They don't have a complicit president on their side this time.

FAFO.

 

[bdb13]

Donald Trump's supporters are threatening war over the former president's indictment on espionage-related charges.

Republican lawmakers and politicians have responded to the indictment with incendiary rhetoric, while pro-Trump message boards have been ablaze with violent threats reminiscent of the online chatter before the Jan. 6 insurrection, reported Vice News.

“MAGA will make Waco look like a tea party,” said a user called 1776take2 on the pro-Trump forum The Donald. "I used to laugh when my mom said that she was afraid if she registered Republican she may be arrested one day. I’m not laughing any more. Just buying more ammo.”

A federal grand jury indicted Trump last week on 37 charges brought by special counsel Jack Smith, and some of the threats targeted the official who appointed him, attorney general Merrick Garland.

“America cannot allow this cowardly thug to destroy our democracy," wrote one Trump supporter on the forum. "This is what the Second Amendment was made for. Buy a gun or help organize your local militia today.”.............

MSN

... Uh, almost everyone at Waco died so.. the analogy's that you too will die for a stupid cause?

 

[Optimus Prime]

Now that my favorite president, Donald Trump, is facing a 37-count indictment from the feds, I join with my brothers and sisters in MAGA, and with all sensible Republicans, in saying this: I’m not sure I want to live in a country where a former president can wave around classified documents he's not supposed to have and say, “This is secret information. Look at this,” and then be held accountable for his actions.

I mean, what kind of country have we become? One in which federal prosecutors can take “evidence” before a “grand jury,” and that grand jury can “vote to indict” a former president for 37 alleged “crimes”? Look at all the other people out there in America, including Democrats like Hillary Clinton and President Joe Biden, who HAVEN’T been indicted for crimes on the flimsy excuse that there is no “evidence” they did crimes. THAT’S TOTALLY UNFAIR!

It’s like Republican Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin wrote in a tweet Friday: “These charges are unprecedented and it’s a sad day for our country, especially in light of what clearly appears to be a two-tiered justice system where some are selectively prosecuted, and others are not.”

Or as Republican Sen. Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee tweeted: “Where are the investigations against the Clintons and the Bidens? What about fairness? Two tiers of justice at work.”

TWO TIERS! One tier in which President Trump keeps getting indicted via both state and federal justice systems and another in which the people I don’t like keep getting not indicted via all the things Fox News tells me they did wrong.

It’s like America has become a banana republic, as long as you do as I’ve done and refuse to look up the definition of “banana republic.”

And of course, you know who’s behind this travesty of justice, right? It’s so-called President Biden, who is both frail and senile and also a laser-sharp master at conducting witch hunts.

Sure, they’ll tell you that the indictment came via a special counsel investigation, and that the federal special counsel statute keeps such investigations walled off from political influence.

But that’s complete nonsense, unless we’re talking about special counsel John Durham, who was appointed by Attorney General Bill Barr while Trump was president and tasked with investigating the NEFARIOUS LEFT-WING CRIMES committed in the Trump-Russia probe.

Durham was above reproach, and the fact that The New York Times reported he “charged no high-level F.B.I. or intelligence official with a crime and acknowledged in a footnote that Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign did nothing prosecutable, either” is something I will ignore................

It’s like this: If Hillary got indicted for murder, I would say, “Yes, she is absolutely a murderer. Lock her up.”

But if in some outrageous scenario President Trump were indicted for murder just because he told a bunch of people that he did a murder, I would say: “HOW DARE YOU CHARGE THIS MAN WITH MURDER WHEN OTHERS IN THE U.S. HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH MURDER! THERE ARE CLEARLY TWO TIERS OF JUSTICE, ONE IN WHICH MY FAVORITE PRESIDENT, WHO SAID HE MURDERED SOMEONE, IS CHARGED WITH MURDER AND ONE IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T MURDERED ARE NOT CHARGED WITH MURDER!”..........

MSN

 

[Optimus Prime]

Sounds like he's trying to distance himself from any potential violence tomorrow

"Yes, I told them to do it, but I later told them not to do it (when I became worried they actually would do it and realized I could get in trouble for telling them to do it)"

wonder if Kari Lake, MTG and others will follow suit
=============================================================

Republican Rep. Clay Higgins (R-LA) walked back Sunday a highly controversial, cryptic tweet he posted following the federal indictment of former President Donald Trump last week.

Higgins’s Congressional office released an official statement on Sunday titled, “Higgins Warns Conservatives Against ‘Falling For The Trap The DOJ/FBI Has Set.’” In the lengthy statement, Higgins warns that federal authorities are engaged in “entrapment-staging.”

“My fellow conservatives, the DOJ/FBI doesn’t expect to imprison Trump, they expect to imprison you. They want J6 again, in Miami and in your city and in mine,” the Republican Congressman declared in a conspiratorial tone.

The unwieldy statement comes days after Higgins was widely condemned for a tweet that many critics saw as a call to violent insurrection against the U.S. government. Higgins tweeted:

President Trump said he has “been summoned to appear at the Federal Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, at 3 PM.”
This is a perimeter probe from the oppressors. Hold. rPOTUS has this.
Buckle up. 1/50K know your bridges. Rock steady calm. That is all.

Jeff Sharlet, a bestselling author and expert on right-wing militias, explained that Higgins’s message was a battle call. “Prepare for war. ‘Know your bridges’ is militia speak for closing them down. County level insurrection,” Sharlet noted, interpreting “Buckle up” as code for “prepare for war.”

Higgins concluded his statement on Sunday by making clear to his supporters that he does not condone violence.

“We will fight against this oppression. We are indeed, with every ounce of spirit, fighting against the insidious evil that threatens our beloved Republic, but We the People must fight against oppression legally, peacefully, and within the parameters of our Constitution,” Higgins concluded...........

Read Rep. Higgins’s full statement below:

“American conservatives are shocked at the level of corruption and targeted persecution we’re witnessing out of our DOJ and FBI. We are outraged and rightfully so, and we want to protect our freedoms and preserve our Republic. However, we’re not willing to violate our Constitution, even as we recognize the dire threat we face from our own government, as our federal law enforcement agencies are turned against us in violation of the Constitution. This latest DOJ persecution against President Trump is an example of more than just weaponization of our DOJ/FBI against a conservative American leader, it’s an example of the now SOP entrapment-staging that the FBI conducts.
My fellow conservatives, the DOJ/FBI doesn’t expect to imprison Trump, they expect to imprison you. They want J6 again, in Miami and in your city and in mine. They want MAGA conservatives to react to this perimeter probe and in doing so, set yourselves up for targeted persecution and further entrapment. They want to intercept a busload of conservatives en route to protest and create conflicts during the stop. They are hoping to provoke conservative Americans. Don’t fall for the trap. Maintain your family. Live your life. Live free and pay close attention and make your voice heard, yes… but don’t become an incarcerated pawn in the agenda driven DOJ/FBI strategy to oppress conservatives across America.
President Trump can take care of himself in court, he knows we’ve got his back. The DOJ knows they’ve got nothing on him. They’re doing this because they want you to let your anger overwhelm your strategic judgment and they expect you to step willingly into their trap. Don’t do it. Be aware and be prepared for anything, know your bridges as we say… but maintain your calm. Rock steady calm.
We will fight against this oppression. We are indeed, with every ounce of spirit, fighting against the insidious evil that threatens our beloved Republic, but We the People must fight against oppression legally, peacefully, and within the parameters of our Constitution.”

MSN

"Just like Joe Biden manipulated you into attacking the Capitol by winning the election, he's doing it again by charging Donald Trump for crimes he committed! But don't fall for it this time, just seethe in silence"

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Sounds like he's trying to distance himself from any potential violence tomorrow

"Yes, I told them to do it, but I later told them not to do it (when I became worried they actually would do it and realized I could get in trouble for telling them to do it)"

wonder if Kari Lake, MTG and others will follow suit
=============================================================

Republican Rep. Clay Higgins (R-LA) walked back Sunday a highly controversial, cryptic tweet he posted following the federal indictment of former President Donald Trump last week.

Higgins’s Congressional office released an official statement on Sunday titled, “Higgins Warns Conservatives Against ‘Falling For The Trap The DOJ/FBI Has Set.’” In the lengthy statement, Higgins warns that federal authorities are engaged in “entrapment-staging.”

“My fellow conservatives, the DOJ/FBI doesn’t expect to imprison Trump, they expect to imprison you. They want J6 again, in Miami and in your city and in mine,” the Republican Congressman declared in a conspiratorial tone.

The unwieldy statement comes days after Higgins was widely condemned for a tweet that many critics saw as a call to violent insurrection against the U.S. government. Higgins tweeted:


Jeff Sharlet, a bestselling author and expert on right-wing militias, explained that Higgins’s message was a battle call. “Prepare for war. ‘Know your bridges’ is militia speak for closing them down. County level insurrection,” Sharlet noted, interpreting “Buckle up” as code for “prepare for war.”

Higgins concluded his statement on Sunday by making clear to his supporters that he does not condone violence.

“We will fight against this oppression. We are indeed, with every ounce of spirit, fighting against the insidious evil that threatens our beloved Republic, but We the People must fight against oppression legally, peacefully, and within the parameters of our Constitution,” Higgins concluded...........

Read Rep. Higgins’s full statement below:

MSN

"Just like Joe Biden manipulated you into attacking the Capitol by winning the election, he's doing it again by charging Donald Trump for crimes he committed! But don't fall for it this time, just seethe in silence"

Three days later:

Body recovered after a truck crash caused the inferno that toppled part of I-95 in Philadelphia, official says | CNN

A body has been recovered from among the wreckage of Sunday’s Interstate 95 collapse in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania State Police told CNN on Monday afternoon.

www.cnn.com

Coincidence

 

[FullMonte]

Destroying no. I said that part wasn't the same. Trump is not accused of incorrectly storing classified information? I thought he was.

No, that's what Trump and his defenders keep saying because then "I declassified everything" becomes a defense....a horrible defense, but a defense nonetheless. The 31 counts involving the documents are charges of violations of 18 USC 793 Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, section (e), which reads (notice the word classified, or any variant of it, appears nowhere in the law):

"Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or"

As for your examples, again, if we are talking about these two being the same, we need examples of the same behavior. None of your examples meet the criteria of matching the things I mentioned. I'll explain why:

my request:
"Examples of Hillary directing someone to move the classified information on her server to a spot where she could access it, but investigators couldn’t find it."

your example:
"On a Friday morning in June 2011, after Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had waited more than 12 hours for a set of talking points to be sent to her, a top aide told her the delay was because staff members were having problems sending faxes that would be secure from probing eyes."

That is not Hillary trying to move classified information from where it was to a spot where only she had access to it, but investigators could not find it. That is a case of Hillary asking someone to email her classified information. Unless I'm mistaken, the subpoena issued to Clinton was sometime in 2015, 4 years after the incident you refer to. I want an example of Hillary taking some kind of action to put the information under her control so she could secret it away from the government agency that was looking for it.

my request:
—Examples of Hillary directing her legal team to lie and say she did not have materials that she knew she had.

your example:
"Clinton's lawyer deleted 30,000 emails that were under subpoena. Trump praised the lawyer for it. Another example of the similarities between Trump and Clinton when it comes to responding the demands for return of documents."

That is not an example of Hillary telling her lawyer to lie and say she did not have documents that she knew she had. Others have shown here that the directive to delete the emails was given before the subpoena was issued, and is in line with precedent allowing government officials to delete emails that they deemed as personal. If there is evidence to support the claim that Hillary told her lawyer to delete those to avoid turning them over in accordance with the subpoena, please provide it, otherwise I want an example of Hillary telling her lawyer something along the lines of "Oh, you found those documents they subpoenaed? Type up a document saying that you did a diligent search and couldn't find them, and sign it "

my request:
—Examples of Hillary directing her lawyers to hide or destroy evidence that they found.

your response:
"CNN anchor Brooke Baldwin was in disbelief when she learned that Hillary Clinton’s aides destroyed her phones with a hammer. "

Unless I'm mistaken, the destroyed phones were phones that were no longer in use, and had been destroyed long before the subpoena was issued. Again, if there is evidence that Hillary told her lawyer, "Hey, they subpoenaed these phones. Please destroy them so that we don't have to turn them over," please share it. Otherwise, please provide an example of Hillary telling her lawyer to hide or destroy evidence that the lawyers found.

 

[efil4]

Three days later:

Body recovered after a truck crash caused the inferno that toppled part of I-95 in Philadelphia, official says | CNN

A body has been recovered from among the wreckage of Sunday’s Interstate 95 collapse in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania State Police told CNN on Monday afternoon.

www.cnn.com

Coincidence

then someone needed a map.

bigly. lol

 

[MT15]

Sack: those were faxes in your example, not emails. It was in an email that Clinton told her staff to go ahead and send them in a non-secure manner, because she had been waiting over 12 hours for the secure faxes to go through. Where is your evidence that this was done with actual emails, even once, let alone thousands of times? The 2 thousand odd emails were never classified, but it was determined after the fact that they should have been “confidential”. At this point we have to assume that you are skewing facts on purpose.

As for snark-nearly every post of yours on here has contained some snark. I have never complained about it, you must be confusing me with someone else. I have complained about your inconsistencies but that was in another thread.

Her picking what to turn over was a cooperation - she received permission to remove personal emails and an officer of the court had to be present.

Trump deliberately took classified documents, he knew they were classified, he knew how to declassify documents he just didn’t do it, he hid them from the Archives and the FBI and jerked them around for over a year, he lied to his lawyers, he suggested his lawyers lie to the FBI, he caused his lawyers to sign a false affidavit, he kept the documents in insecure areas, he showed them to journalists and political PAC members (that we know of) and who knows who else got to see them. There were plenty of foreign actors around Trump during the time. We still don‘t have all the documents because we know from a recording that he had a very sensitive document at Bedminster the month before the Saudis came for their golf tournament. This document concerned a theoretical invasion of Iran, and cannot be located now. How much do you think the Saudis would have liked to see that?

If you seriously think these cases are the same - well, you cannot be taken seriously. Sorry, it’s not even close.