The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (11 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[DaveXA]

To add:

I know we're trying to 'both sides' this thing.. but the most direct comparison we can make here is to four years ago and back then in that much closer election, Hillary and the Democrats handled things markedly different than have Trump and the Republicans and his supporters.

This is quite an escalation from what we have seen previously from Republicans or Democrats and I don't think that point's particularly controversial.

So yes, while Republicans may have allowed themselves to become triggered by Democrats and Russia.. I don't think this is in any way a proportional response.

It's absolutely not proportional. It's outright ridiculous. This should have been called the day after the election and Trump simply could have ended all this by conceding. But screw all past norms and traditions, all he cares about is himself and his image.

 

[SaintForLife]

I’ve seen the Russian influence on the 2016 election being dismissed and downplayed by our Conservatives on this board. Then I saw this today. It’s a really good look at the types of things they were doing and how they affected voting patterns.

After Russian trolls target black Americans, one city fights back — The Christian Science Monitor

Black activists point to a long history of people interfering with African Americans’ right to vote. In 2016, that meddling came from overseas.

apple.news

Relevant quote:

“About two-thirds of Russian activity on Facebook and other social media platforms seeking to influence the 2016 election was aimed at black Americans, according to a new Senate Intelligence Committee report. And at least one of the Moscow-linked trolls was focusing on Charlotte.

The internet campaign appeared designed to convince African Americans, who traditionally favor Democrat candidates, that it was not worth voting – at least not for Hillary Clinton. It was built on false messages such as “HILLARY RECEIVED $20,000 DONATION FROM KKK FOR HER CAMPAIGN.”

It is impossible to gauge the campaign’s precise impact. But in 2016, African American voter turnout was 7% lower than in 2012, the largest such drop on record. It was even steeper in North Carolina, one of the six swing states in which President Donald Trump eked out narrow victories en route to winning the Electoral College.”

I think it’s important for everyone to realize what was done in 2016 and not speak dismissively about it. In 2016 the Russians may have enabled Trump to win, but they could decide tomorrow that a Sanders victory or a Warren victory would better suit their goals of dividing the country and causing turmoil. And the lack of due diligence from the current Administration will have been largely responsible.

I wish our elected representatives, particularly in the Senate, would quit being afraid of offending Trump’s ego and get serious about what the Russians did. It’s hard to imagine them doing that, however, when they are following Trump’s lead and parroting Russian intelligence disinformation.

Repeating lies from “pundits” saying things that aren’t true to turn the blame back around on Democrats for the current inexcusable behavior of the Republican Party?

good lord, that’s rich.

Where would I have gotten the idea that anyone here, in the media, or Democrats claimed that Trump won because of Russia's interference? Hmmmm

 

[SaintForLife]

Not that I believe polls anymore, but where does the statistic come from that a super majority of Democrats believe that Russia "illegitimately installed" Trump as President?

I think it's possible that Russian propaganda helped Trump a bit, but I wouldn't say that Russia illegitimately installed him into power. I think that's probably more in line with what a supermajority of Democrats believe.

I believe the "installed" was hyperbole, but many Democrats believe Trump wouldn't have won without Russia's interference. Any claim otherwise is nothing but pure gaslighting.

 

[SaintForLife]

It's absolutely not proportional. It's outright ridiculous. This should have been called the day after the election and Trump simply could have ended all this by conceding. But screw all past norms and traditions, all he cares about is himself and his image.

Trumps claims about massive fraud are without evidence and he shouldn't be saying that. But why would he concede before his lawsuits and court battles are done no matter how weak and flimsy they appear to be?

Maybe Hillary gave Trump some advice :

Hillary Clinton says Biden should not concede the election 'under any circumstances'

The former Democratic presidential nominee predicted Republicans could try to âmess up absentee ballotingâ for a narrow advantage in the Electoral College.

www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[bdb13]

I believe the "installed" was hyperbole, but many Democrats believe Trump wouldn't have won without Russia's interference. Any claim otherwise is nothing but pure gaslighting.

"Many" is vague enough in that case where I'd say that's true, in the same way that "many Democrats believe Trump wouldn't have won" had Hillary visited Wisconsin; " " had Hillary not been the nominee; " " had Comey not reopened the investigation; " " etc.

What are the alternatives being discussed by those on the right right now outside of Democrats having stolen the election from Trump? I'd be interested to see these discussions and where they're occurring.

 

[MT15]

Where would I have gotten the idea that anyone here, in the media, or Democrats claimed that Trump won because of Russia's interference? Hmmmm

that’s not what you said, or rather your pundits said. They are saying that Democrats disparaged the voting process first, before the Rs did it. That is a self-serving lie.

Show me where I said that the voting process or the counting of the ballots was compromised in 2016. You cannot. Saying that it’s possible that Russian interference may have swayed some votes is vastly different from what your hypocritical pundits are saying was said and believed widely.

And Trump should concede because it’s the correct and patriotic thing to do. He has no case, and everyone knows it. He is sabotaging the nation because he’s a child who cannot accept the truth.

 

[bdb13]

"Many" is vague enough in that case where I'd say that's true, in the same way that "many Democrats believe Trump wouldn't have won" had Hillary visited Wisconsin; " " had Hillary not been the nominee; " " had Comey not reopened the investigation; " " etc.

What are the alternatives being discussed by those on the right right now outside of Democrats having stolen the election from Trump? I'd be interested to see these discussions and where they're occurring.

And I am honestly both sidesing it here myself because I'm putting the apparently false idea that Democrats stole the election alongside the apparently not false idea that Russia attempted to interfere with the 2016 election and that Donald Trump was their candidate of choice.

One at the very least has strong elements of truth to it, the other doesn't. The difference is that Republicans have mostly banked everything on this false idea whereas Democrats mostly thought that the Russian interference was a part of the reason Hillary lost, not the entirety of it.

You could definitely argue that Democrats misattribute the impact of Russian interference.. But that's still not in the same ballpark as having to combat Trump and the Republicans fabricating this story of widespread Democratic election fraud.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

The election is over. Biden is President. Even if they find evidence of fraud or irregularities it won't be enough to change the outcome.

Are you really surprised that after 4 years of people claiming the 2016 wasn't legitimate because of Putin that people on the right don't believe the results? Did people not think that would lower voters confidence in the integrity of the election?

You reap what you sow

FRICKIN' RACCOONS!!!!

Even then, the WH transition happened. There is no reason to proceed with these steps given the current results of this election.

These current doubts in this election are based off of the lies of trump prior to election day and his supporters falling for them. In particular "The only way I lose this election is by voter fraud", he repeated that lie daily in order to condition his supporters to believe it to be true.

After the election, trump has tried to make his false statements true, but to no avail. He initially stated that the MIV's were fraudulent, they are not. Now he is claiming that the machines were programmed to alter the vote tally. All of his claims of fraud are without any evidence to support them.

As he continues to make false claim after false claim, he is actively destroying our democracy. If he truly cared about our nation, he would issue a statement praising those poll workers who busted their arses to administer this election instead of shirtting on their integrity. He has no clue on what it takes to maintain this great experiment and he has no clue what security measures are in place to ensure a free and fair election.

 

[DaveXA]

Trumps claims about massive fraud are without evidence and he shouldn't be saying that. But why would he concede before his lawsuits and court battles are done no matter how weak and flimsy they appear to be?

Maybe Hillary gave Trump some advice :

Hillary Clinton says Biden should not concede the election 'under any circumstances'

The former Democratic presidential nominee predicted Republicans could try to âmess up absentee ballotingâ for a narrow advantage in the Electoral College.

www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Because the evidence is plain as day that he's currently trailing in the 5 closest states remaining that he would need to flip. It's simply not going to happen and all of what he's doing now is purely theater. Every challenger ever who was trailing by this margin conceded in short order. Hillary was trailing by a far smaller margin and conceded to Trump the day after the election. The only reason we're still having the discussion is because Trump. That is all. Any other candidate would have conceded by now. That's the track record. For the love of our country and a peaceful transition, he should concede.

He's got the right to contest it. But you and I know it's a complete waste of everyone's time and money. He's going to lose. And the longer he stalls, the more egg he'll have on his face he'll have when it's all said done. Sanity has done left the building. A little sense of normalcy seems a good thing right about now ya think?

 

[LA - L.A.]

I've actually been following the OANN Trump information circle, and it's hilarious. Trump Tweets something that he credits to OANN. They then almost immediately run an article that quotes the Presidents Tweet as a source of their reporting.

Whose on first? That's right. What's right? No what's on second. I don't know.

Third base!

That is what an echo chamber actually is. An echo chamber is not just a bunch of people agreeing with each other. It's a closed, never ending loop of two or more entities each quoting the other as sources of evidence of something.

 

[bdb13]

 

[MT15]

Is that why I just heard on the news that 2 officials from DHS had been fired?

 

[FullMonte]

To add:

I know we're trying to 'both sides' this thing.. but the most direct comparison we can make here is to four years ago and back then in that much closer election, Hillary and the Democrats handled things markedly different than have Trump and the Republicans and his supporters.

This is quite an escalation from what we have seen previously from Republicans or Democrats and I don't think that point's particularly controversial.

So yes, while Republicans may have allowed themselves to become triggered by Democrats and Russia.. I don't think this is in any way a proportional response.

And...for context.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Is that why I just heard on the news that 2 officials from DHS had been fired?

Two Homeland Security officials forced to resign by White House | CNN Politics

Two senior Department of Homeland Security officials have been forced to resign by the White House, according to sources familiar with the resignations.

www.cnn.com

Washington (CNN)Two senior Department of Homeland Security officials have been forced to resign by the White House, according to sources familiar with the resignations.
Among them was a top official in DHS's cyber arm, who resigned amid a national security shakeup by the Trump administration. Bryan Ware served as assistant director for cybersecurity at DHS' Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA).
DHS assistant secretary for international affairs Valerie Boyd also resigned amid pressure from the White House, officials tell CNN.
DHS, CISA and the White House declined to comment on the resignations.

These resignations are happening because of...Reasons.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

There seems to be a big difference in "the both sides" arguments.

It seems to comes down to trusting institutions and processes vs. trusting a single man.

 

[MT15]

I guess the AZ ”sharpie gate” case today was a real hoot. A bunch of witnesses who claimed they were told to use a sharpie and that led to their votes being discarded actually had to admit on the stand that they didn’t actually know that their votes were discarded. And then there was this:

 

[not2rich]

There seems to be a big difference in "the both sides" arguments.

It seems to comes down to trusting institutions and processes vs. trusting a single man.

The fact the single man so many people trust - TRUST! - is Donald Trump... It's mind-blowing.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

The fact the single man so many people trust - TRUST! - is Donald Trump... It's mind-blowing.

The state with the worst Covid rates by far elected a dead man who died of covid a month before the election
I’ve stopped trying to understand- I’m going to wait til my youngest is in college and have him study then explain 2016-2020 to me