The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (6 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Got it. Taking

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaredm...ers-are-ignorant-but-not-stupid/#11ce08647ff1

If voters are poorly informed about government policy, they will often make poor decisions. They often support counterproductive or contradictory policies. For example, as you note, most voters greatly overestimate the percentage of the federal budget spent on foreign aid (actually, about 1%), while massively underestimating the amount devoted to big entitlement programs, such as Medicare and Social Security. As a result, they believe we can solve our fiscal problems without either cutting entitlements or raising taxes on the vast majority of Americans. That delusion makes it very hard to do budget policy in a rational way.
Voters also often reward and punish elected officials for events they did not cause, such as short-term economic trends and even droughts and sports team victories (all of which have been shown to influence election results).
Beyond that, there are a host of issues where governments routinely pursue harmful and misguided policies that appeal to relatively ignorant voters, even though policy experts across the political spectrum recognize their flaws. In some cases, the harmful policies persist because voters do not even know about them, or do not understand their effects.

What does any of this have to do with voting by mail?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

What does any of this have to do with voting by mail?

He's linking an article saying Americans are ignorant, and the implication is that they therefore cannot be trusted, so we should not make it easier for them to vote.

 

[dtc]

At least in the last few days we learned that the need for mail in voting has been dramatically over stated. Gathering in groups for important civil duties is very important and no longer taboo.

25000 new cases today.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

So, I will say that there is an interesting dynamic at work watching certain local authorities who were very strict with social distancing in March, April and into May celebrate the protests and even march with them (where no social distancing can be maintained). Even though they are still pushing wearing masks (and at the protests and marches I've observed around here, people are mostly wearing masks), there is no social distancing.

Now, outdoor activities at the end of May is different than indoor activities in the early Spring and late Fall, but I also suspect that this is more of an emotionally driven response. There's a decent probability that these protests will lead to more deaths in the near term than police brutality.

Based on that I would say that the order of values by these politicians would look something like this:

1. Need to promote long term justice
2. Save lives from pandemic
3. Short term freedom of movement

 

[Farb]

25000 new cases today.

Memorial Day or peaceful protests...

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Memorial Day or peaceful protests...

Large gatherings of people will lead to more COVID outbreaks. During the summer and outdoors, those outbreaks will be smaller than from larger indoor gatherings during the fall/winter/early spring.

 

[Farb]

You are correct. Two things can be true at the same time and usually are. That is a rare concept lately.

 

[zztop]

Whenever I see something about voting by mail, I also think of voter suppression. And one thing really comes to mind, when laws are passed requiring an address to vote. At first glance it might seem logical, right? And yet...

How the Native American Vote Continues to be Suppressed

Many Native Americans living on reservations continue to be excluded from the democratic process of voting because they cannot provide a residential address and may have a form of ID not compliant with voting laws.

www.americanbar.org

sometimes deliberately or otherwise, do not take all people into consideration

No street address, no vote? ND, Native Americans settle voter ID lawsuit

Native Americans in North Dakota won a significant victory this week with a settlement that guarantees they will be able to vote, even if they lack a permanent home address.

www.americanbar.org

 

[cuddlemonkey]

He's linking an article saying Americans are ignorant, and the implication is that they therefore cannot be trusted, so we should not make it easier for them to vote.

that's what it feels like he's saying, but I would like for him to clarify because I would hate to think that someone is publicly stating that access to the ballot box should be restricted.

 

[Farb]

that's what it feels like he's saying, but I would like for him to clarify because I would hate to think that someone is publicly stating that access to the ballot box should be restricted.

Restricted? I don't think so. Be a citizen, show ID and vote.
The more educated voters the better. That has always been a good thing in a republic.
I was linking an article about the 'ignorant voter' and how that is a negative on a free and democratic election. If the mail ballot issue becomes a platform to send a ballot to every able voter without that voter requesting one (and I have a gut feeling that it will be the next step in 'progress') then you are enabling the uneducated voter. Some might think that is a good idea. Some might think that is a bad idea.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Restricted? I don't think so. Be a citizen, show ID and vote.
The more educated voters the better. That has always been a good thing in a republic.
I was linking an article about the 'ignorant voter' and how that is a negative on a free and democratic election. If the mail ballot issue becomes a platform to send a ballot to every able voter without that voter requesting one (and I have a gut feeling that it will be the next step in 'progress') then you are enabling the uneducated voter. Some might think that is a good idea. Some might think that is a bad idea.

I am of the opinion that the ballot box should be made easily accessible to the largest segment of the voting populace. Efforts to educate voters- I mean legitimate education and not partisan spin- should also be undertaken.

At the end of the day, however, restricting the right to vote based on arbitrary measures such as education level and understanding of the issues and policies is highly illegal no matter how good or bad someone thinks the idea is.

 

[Beach Friends]

So, I will say that there is an interesting dynamic at work watching certain local authorities who were very strict with social distancing in March, April and into May celebrate the protests and even march with them (where no social distancing can be maintained). Even though they are still pushing wearing masks (and at the protests and marches I've observed around here, people are mostly wearing masks), there is no social distancing.

Now, outdoor activities at the end of May is different than indoor activities in the early Spring and late Fall, but I also suspect that this is more of an emotionally driven response. There's a decent probability that these protests will lead to more deaths in the near term than police brutality.

Based on that I would say that the order of values by these politicians would look something like this:

1. Need to promote long term justice
2. Save lives from pandemic
3. Short term freedom of movement

I think in the search for an answer you might want to expand the possibilities beyond the virtuous.

At the top of my list would be that they are no longer even trying to hide their hypocrisy.

3 days before this photo the governor was telling her constituents to Google how to cut their own hair:

 

[The moose]

I think in the search for an answer you might want to expand the possibilities beyond the virtuous.

At the top of my list would be that they are no longer even trying to hide their hypocrisy.

3 days before this photo the governor was telling her constituents to Google how to cut their own hair:

What is the real problem with making voting eaiser?

You can post whatever you want about the protests but that has not one thing to do with letting people vote.

And why should it be difficult?

If you have not noticed life has changed a ton in the last few weeks and you, me or anyone else has no earthly idea what life will be like in November.

So yes people have died for our right to vote but I don't think the elderly should risk their lives to vote in November.

 

[dtc]

I think in the search for an answer you might want to expand the possibilities beyond the virtuous.

At the top of my list would be that they are no longer even trying to hide their hypocrisy.

3 days before this photo the governor was telling her constituents to Google how to cut their own hair:

Those folks are outside, wearing masks. With what we know how, they have a very low probability of getting CV from what they're doing in the picture, but certainly more than I have avoiding them. Politicians are like weather vanes and anyone who pretends they're not is kidding themselves.

I'm sure this governor would prefer to be on the right side of the issue in the eyes of her mature constituency than to appear like a badgering old schoolmaster demanding they all stay home. And do remember, on one side are Republicans who believe the pandemic is a hoax and that peaceful protestors are all antifa terrorists and that POTUS should call in the Marines to kill them all and the rest of the world.

I think she's ok.

 

[MT15]

Here is a reasoned perspective from a public health expert. The whole thread is really good.

 

[Farb]

Here is a reasoned perspective from a public health expert. The whole thread is really good.

LOL! Those health experts that have driven public policies for the last 3 months have been steady and correct the entire time. Yeah, sorry if I don't bow down to a political hack that happens to have a series of 'science' letters behind their name.

 

[Ayo]

LOL! Those health experts that have driven public policies for the last 3 months have been steady and correct the entire time. Yeah, sorry if I don't bow down to a political hack that happens to have a series of 'science' letters behind their name.

I don't think this is quite an accurate representation - if I am understanding what you are implying. Are you saying that the science that's driving this is actually political?

I'm seeing the same measures implemented up here, and they've changed with the changing of the science. I don't know what you're talking about for down there. When I talk to folks back in Lousiana, it's usually my dad - a 70+ man with hypertension since he was a teen, so he's very cautious and worried.

We've seen the impact here on the numbers when the 'science' took control and it matches up with the rest of the world.

I'm not saying that there aren't things that could be done safely to open up, but it seems you are going for something more nefarious, as if the current recommendations are somehow without justification.

And I vote by mail.

And I would add my voice to the chorus of the more voters the better. AN 'informed' electorate is never going to happen. It's a pipedream. But I'm against saying YOU can't vote because you don't own land. Or YOU can't vote because you're a woman. Or YOU can't vote because you're black. Or YOU can't vote because I think you are too dumb

What about the people who are too compromised by their vote? People whose vote means their gain on the pain of many others?

One person, one vote. I dont care about the rest

 

[MT15]

Restricted? I don't think so. Be a citizen, show ID and vote.
The more educated voters the better. That has always been a good thing in a republic.
I was linking an article about the 'ignorant voter' and how that is a negative on a free and democratic election. If the mail ballot issue becomes a platform to send a ballot to every able voter without that voter requesting one (and I have a gut feeling that it will be the next step in 'progress') then you are enabling the uneducated voter. Some might think that is a good idea. Some might think that is a bad idea.

you’re still being inconsistent. You say you don’t want to restrict the vote, but you are supporting policies that do exactly that, while putting forth a view that maybe it would be better if everyone didn’t vote. Do you not see the inconsistency?

Utah and Florida have been conservative states who have done vote by mail for years. In your view should they be forced to abandon that?