The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (14 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

The signature check of the ballots may catch fraudulent submissions, but I've seen people accept many variations of my signature, and my partner has copied my signature. It provides some protection, but not enough under normal circumstances. I think the pandemic justifies accepting the extra risk. One thing that checking signatures doesn't do is to prevent ballots from being stolen. That's why I would couple the paper ballot with a backup electronic system. I would require confirmation that a ballot was sent.


If by digital systems you mean online, then Rad raised some good reasons to be concerned, such as Phishing and other cyber concerns, and if you're referring to the digital readers used for in-person voting, then I agree that they too are vulnerable, but I think it is a harder target. Aren't mail-in ballots read by the same digital systems, which would make them have the same risk, plus the added risks of mail related votes? Both are mitigated by assuring that all digital systems have backup paper ballots.

The link I included is from an intelligent leak released in 2017 that showed that Russian hackers had successfully infiltrated a number of in-person electronic voting systems. No evidence they actually changed it, but it seems they had the capacity to do so had they made that decision.

It would be very difficult for hackers to infiltrate any of these states mail-in systems. As they are tallied and ultimately verified through analogue, not digital. Digital aids may be used, but not substituted, not given any final word. Every ballot must still be looked over and counted by a bi-partisan panel of trained volunteers that will match up information and signatures. Seek reconfirmation if any irregularities occur. And because everything is done by mail, there is an outsized emphasis on having the most accurate rolls possible, whereas other states that don’t move this direction aren’t compelled to emphasize this, states like Colorado continuously update their rolls by incorporating in data from state sources. Including mandatory list and verification information audits before and after every election. Which has led to a country low level of irregularities or fraud occurring in their mail-in system.

 

[not2rich]

The USPS is one of the most efficient organizations on the face of the planet. They deliver billions of pieces of mail every single day without fail even during a pandemic for 50c.

Rarely is anything lost and NEVER is anything sent certified lost.

And, more importantly, if it's good enough to ship ballots for our soldiers and service people overseas it's good enough for the rest of us.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is puzzled whenever someone raises the USPS' supposed incompetence and inefficiency. I can count on one hand the number of times something I mailed or expected in the mail got lost, and have three fingers to spare.

 

[Lapaz]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is puzzled whenever someone raises the USPS' supposed incompetence and inefficiency. I can count on one hand the number of times something I mailed or expected in the mail got lost, and have three fingers to spare.

I agree the USPS does a very good job. Since you mentioned the near zero loss of certified mail, I wonder whether mail-in ballots should all be certified mail? Bronco has provided some good information about precautions taken by states that use widespread mail-in ballots, but I'm not clear if they use certified mail, which would alleviate the concern of stolen ballots. I like the human checks of each ballot, but I still believe we should use digital readers. The checks should match, or investigated further. If the electronic readers are wrong, then we can work to improve the readers.

 

[dtc]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is puzzled whenever someone raises the USPS' supposed incompetence and inefficiency. I can count on one hand the number of times something I mailed or expected in the mail got lost, and have three fingers to spare.

Exactly. I can recall a number of things that were lost and most of them happened when someone moved. And, the rest are BS where someone said they sent a check and didn't.

"It's lost in the mail" is a lie 99% of the time.

UPS on the other hand....

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Maybe I misunderstood the spirit of Andrus’s post, but gish galloping to me is not really engagaing in good faith with honesty.

And a simple cursory glance at some of those so called “sources” are little more than unsourced musings from fringe partisan blogs opining the dangers of this sort of voting without the evidence to back it, much like what I challenged Tony on previously.

Only about one or two even attempt to provide some non-tinged evidence for problems, and none that I see involve the states that have moved to these mail-in systems that specifically focus on layers of verification from the rolls used to register and provide ballots to the back end of counting the ballots and matching signatures.


Care to walk me through what the most compelling arguments your no doubt hours of reading and vetting all those sources helped produce in forming your opinion? As surely you engaged the material enough to reference some of the more compelling pieces of evidence and are able to summarize your findings so we can finally move this conversation past what was simply requested of you now two days ago.

Sure. They all confirmed that voting by mail is ripe for fraud. Some even showed cases where it has happened and in Florida caused an election to be overturned. Everything I have said was backed up in those articles.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Sure. They all confirmed that voting by mail is ripe for fraud. Some even showed cases where it has happened and in Florida caused an election to be overturned. Everything I have said was backed up in those articles.

You are mistaken. None of the links you posted confirmed that voting by mail is ripe for fraud. The first link was to a right-wing blog entry that gave their opinion. From the article...

The obvious concern in all of this is voter fraud. What if someone fills out an additional application and obtains an extra ballot? Is it possible for people to fill out a ballot application for those who have moved — or are dead — and end up with extra ballots to cast in the election? The short answer is, Yes. Jaeger, however, doesn’t seem to think the possibility is problematic, because the information on the application must match what’s on the CVF database in order to receive the ballots.

The second link you posted was for 4 women indicted for in North Texas for voter fraud that was caught because there is a system in place to catch it. This actually directly refutes the point you are trying to support.

The third link you posted was another right-wing opinion piece that talked more about absentee ballot voting than mail-in voting.

If you are being 100% honest and transparent and actually are concerned with the right to vote being infringed upon, maybe let's talk about voter suppression; something that has been a republican SOP for more years than I have been alive.

A quick google search turned up these...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...s-about-voter-suppression-heres-how-stop-them

Republicans Have Turned to Full-On Voter Intimidation in 2020

Fearing their other suppression efforts won't be enough, the Party of Lincoln returns to a strategy they pursued in 2004, 1990, 1986, and 1982.

www.esquire.com

https://newrepublic.com/article/156861/republican-voter-suppression-tactics-trump-2020 (Pay site firewall)

Top Trump adviser: Republicans have 'always' relied on voter suppression

Adviser Justin Clark, who was heard on tape saying ‘Traditionally, it’s always been Republicans suppressing votes’, says remarks were taken out of context

www.theguardian.com

Reports of Voter Intimidation at Polling Places in Texas

Election official in Dallas County says it’s the worst she’s seen in decades.

www.propublica.org

Let's talk about a real problem instead of a "what if". Let's talk about Republican voter intimidation and voter suppression efforts.

 

[superchuck500]

Pretty sure I said I voted in 3-4 elections by mail. Hyperbole doesn't make your argument any better.

I understand the idea of a mail in ballot might be foreign to you, since Mississippi only allows absentee voting. But, it's a pretty well proven system in many states.

Thirty states. In 30 states you can vote by mail simply by requesting to do so.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Most of the country is beginning to open up again. There will have to be some sort of convention for both parties. There will be no need for mail in voting so this whole discussion is useless. So let’s all move on to the next thing.

 

[MT15]

When 30 states allow mail in voting for any reason, and the Trump campaign is actively encouraging people in those states to sign up for mail in voting, you’re right that it’s a done deal. Mail in voting will be with us going forward. And nobody honestly thinks it’s a scheme by the democrats to steal the election.

This is a good time to calibrate your (not any one person, the collective “your”) reading material. Anyone that is hyperventilating about voter fraud concerning mail in voting by one party isn’t a good faith source. I do this from time to time on Twitter and in my reading material. Just unfollow or unbookmark those people who are saying this is a scheme by one party to “rig” an election. Both parties use mail in voting, it’s done by both parties whenever they can.

We can and should have a conversation about making it as secure as it can be, but there’s no truth to the idea that it results in wide spread voter fraud.

 

[superchuck500]

Most of the country is beginning to open up again. There will have to be some sort of convention for both parties. There will be no need for mail in voting so this whole discussion is useless. So let’s all move on to the next thing.

You have no idea what's going to happen in November.

Here's how I see it: Every publicly-traded and well-run company in America is going to have a plan for handling contingencies in October/November/December in the event of a second wave of Covid-19 when temperatures cool off. If they don't have a plan in place, they're total idiots. Anyone in that board room or executive suite that resisted it would be fired on the spot it it came to pass and they had no plan.

Elections are the most important structural feature in the American system of government. States run elections. If states don't have a contingency plan for a new wave of Covid to impact elections in November, it's total idiocy. Anyone resisting having a plan in place has no business being anywhere near a position of influence.

Just because you have a plan doesn't mean you have to do it. Have a plan based on certain metrics about a possible new outbreak. If those metrics don't happen, then great - there's no need for it. But getting to the point where you do need it but, instead, you get launched into chaos because short-sided people with awful judgment refused to plan? That's just so freakin dumb.

 

[superchuck500]

Wait . . . isn't this voter fraud?

 

[Eeyore]

Wait . . . isn't this voter fraud?

And he voted by mail

 

[Farb]

At least in the last few days we learned that the need for mail in voting has been dramatically over stated. Gathering in groups for important civil duties is very important and no longer taboo.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

At least in the last few days we learned that the need for mail in voting has been dramatically over stated. Gathering in groups for important civil duties is very important and no longer taboo.

Are you seeing a lot of elderly people at these rallies and protests? Or are you saying that the protesters are a good representation of all voters both in terms of numbers and demographics? Is there an alternative way to protest that people are deliberately ignoring that would allow them to be socially distant and actually still make an impactful protest?

I mean it's clear that the people protesting are placing a higher value on their protest activities than on their fear of COVID-19. But I'm not sure how that invalidates taking prudent measures to allow people to vote in a safer way, since voting in person means being indoors, in November at places mostly staffed by the elderly would then need to be in close contact with thousands of people.

 

[superchuck500]

At least in the last few days we learned that the need for mail in voting has been dramatically over stated. Gathering in groups for important civil duties is very important and no longer taboo.

The argument for expanded vote-by-mail in November is that states need to be prepared for a new wave of coronavirus in the fall. The fact that the virus appears to be behaving in accordance with seasonal expectations seems to verify rather than discredit that basic premise.

Of course, we don't know if that will come to pass. But not being prepared for it is foolish. Especially if you consider that the remedy (vote by mail) is already available at the voter's choice, in 30 states.

 

[insidejob]

Especially if you consider that the remedy (vote by mail) is already available at the voter's choice, in 30 states

And absentee voting is in place in all 50 states, isn't it? I know you have to apply in advance to vote absentee, but it shows that every state can do vote by mail, they'd just have to significantly increase the people working on that instead of voting in person. Especially if the virus follows the course of most viruses with no vaccine and comes back with a vengeance right when it gets cool which is election time, as you noted.

ETA: Just moved and changed my voter registration. I can register to get an mail in ballot from the LA SOS website right now for the election in July. COVID is one of the reasons you can use to vote by mail/absentee.

 

[JRad]

We should be making voting as accessible as possible to all Americans, regardless of if there's a pandemic or not.

Expressing your right to protest and expressing your right to vote aren't really apples to apples if you're trying to use that as an excuse to not expand vote by mail.

 

[Farb]

Got it. Taking

We should be making voting as accessible as possible to all Americans, regardless of if there's a pandemic or not.

Expressing your right to protest and expressing your right to vote aren't really apples to apples if you're trying to use that as an excuse to not expand vote by mail.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaredm...ers-are-ignorant-but-not-stupid/#11ce08647ff1

If voters are poorly informed about government policy, they will often make poor decisions. They often support counterproductive or contradictory policies. For example, as you note, most voters greatly overestimate the percentage of the federal budget spent on foreign aid (actually, about 1%), while massively underestimating the amount devoted to big entitlement programs, such as Medicare and Social Security. As a result, they believe we can solve our fiscal problems without either cutting entitlements or raising taxes on the vast majority of Americans. That delusion makes it very hard to do budget policy in a rational way.
Voters also often reward and punish elected officials for events they did not cause, such as short-term economic trends and even droughts and sports team victories (all of which have been shown to influence election results).
Beyond that, there are a host of issues where governments routinely pursue harmful and misguided policies that appeal to relatively ignorant voters, even though policy experts across the political spectrum recognize their flaws. In some cases, the harmful policies persist because voters do not even know about them, or do not understand their effects.