The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (8 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I'm starting to get that sinking feeling again, which is probably just my pessimism. Barr is getting involved now, the levers of power are once again putting country before party, the PA state senate saying they won't certify the election without a full audit...

They ar doing everything they can to put themselves in a position to steal this. They may fail, but it won't be for lack of trying.

 

[superchuck500]

 

[Saint by the Bay]

...and by the way, with the way the messaging is so synced up, this was clearly planned out ahead of time. They are all too strongly on message. That doesn't happen by accident, and it doesn't happen after the fact.

 

[Maxp]

It's time to take to the streets, we cannot allow the dissolution of the republic.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

I'm starting to get that sinking feeling again, which is probably just my pessimism. Barr is getting involved now, the levers of power are once again putting country before party, the PA state senate saying they won't certify the election without a full audit...

They ar doing everything they can to put themselves in a position to steal this. They may fail, but it won't be for lack of trying.

I had *just* started to get over that sinking feeling.. My fear is that their antics will cause just enough ruckus to get this stuff to the Supreme Court.. becuase if it does, then Trump has a real shot, since the court has been packed with his loyalists.

 

[superchuck500]

At this point, this all just seems like a desperate, and actually quite weak effort. Elections are matters of state law and DOJ isn't going to be able to start examining (auditing) election results - I think they would have to get a federal warrant based on demonstrable probable cause before they even get access to votes and the process by which states have conducted the election.

The idea that tens of thousands of votes can be shown to have been illegally cast remains a tough sell. Elections have officials, and process, and safeguards that include observers and redundancies. Some kind of massively coordinated effort on the inside to change or manufacture votes is outlandish. It's like the Republican county commissioner that oversees elections in Philadelphia said, "it's deranged."

So if inside job is unlikely, what might an effort at that kind of scale would it take to result in 5-digit victories in six swing states? Registering fake people? I don't think that's very easy and illegal under state and federal law. Stealing tens or hundreds of thousands of mail ballots that were intended for other registered voters and sending them in? That too seems quite hard to imagine that it could be coordinated that that kind of result.

It just doesn't seem that the litigation or law enforcement routes will bear enough fruit to make a difference. I think the more worrisome area is whether GOP-controlled state governments attempt to craft a way to disregard their results. Only GA and AZ have full GOP control, but PA, WI, and MI have GOP control of the state legislature, and the electoral process does give more power to state legislatures than they typically have.

Unless there really is some kind of evidence of enough fraud or demonstrably wrongly counted votes (doesn't seem likely at this point), the question becomes how far will some of these people go to perpetrate what is effectively a coup? I remain convinced that it won't be enough to matter.

 

[brandon]

At this point, this all just seems like a desperate, and actually quite weak effort.

Still keeping the faith, I see.

 

[DaveXA]

At this point, this all just seems like a desperate, and actually quite weak effort. Elections are matters of state law and DOJ isn't going to be able to start examining (auditing) election results - I think they would have to get a federal warrant based on demonstrable probable cause before they even get access to votes and the process by which states have conducted the election.

The idea that tens of thousands of votes can be shown to have been illegally cast remains a tough sell. Elections have officials, and process, and safeguards that include observers and redundancies. Some kind of massively coordinated effort on the inside to change or manufacture votes is outlandish. It's like the Republican county commissioner that oversees elections in Philadelphia said, "it's deranged."

So if inside job is unlikely, what might an effort at that kind of scale would it take to result in 5-digit victories in six swing states? Registering fake people? I don't think that's very easy and illegal under state and federal law. Stealing tens or hundreds of thousands of mail ballots that were intended for other registered voters and sending them in? That too seems quite hard to imagine that it could be coordinated that that kind of result.

It just doesn't seem that the litigation or law enforcement routes will bear enough fruit to make a difference. I think the more worrisome area is whether GOP-controlled state governments attempt to craft a way to disregard their results. Only GA and AZ have full GOP control, but PA, WI, and MI have GOP control of the state legislature, and the electoral process does give more power to state legislatures than they typically have.

Unless there really is some kind of evidence of enough fraud or demonstrably wrongly counted votes (doesn't seem likely at this point), the question becomes how far will some of these people go to perpetrate what is effectively a coup? I remain convinced that it won't be enough to matter.

I really don't think those state officials want their name on what could effectively be called a coup attempt. And tbh, I think Congress and or SCOTUS would certainly not be party to that. I know people might not have the patience for it, but I wouldn't get too bent out of shape until after the states start certifying results. I'd hope this mess is resolved by then though.

I get why Trump is stalling, but there's no path, and really, there never was one. But he needs to be convinced that what he's doing will cause irreparable harm to the republic. He needs to move on. But I'm not really expecting him to.

 

[brandon]

I really don't think those state officials want their name on what could effectively be called a coup attempt. And tbh, I think Congress and or SCOTUS would certainly not be party to that. I know people might not have the patience for it, but I wouldn't get too bent out of shape until after the states start certifying results. I'd hope this mess is resolved by then though.

I get why Trump is stalling, but there's no path, and really, there never was one. But he needs to be convinced that what he's doing will cause irreparable harm to the republic. He needs to move on. But I'm not really expecting him to.

If you can effectively coup a Supreme Court justice or two, why not do the same thing for the presidency?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

So, what's the timeline on all these motions, lawsuits, audits and so on? At this point as stupid as it may seem, the only way to go forward now is to just get it over with. Do the "audits", recounts and so on - make them transparent and so on. So, how long will that take?

 

[Nebaghead]

I really don't think those state officials want their name on what could effectively be called a coup attempt. And tbh, I think Congress and or SCOTUS would certainly not be party to that. I know people might not have the patience for it, but I wouldn't get too bent out of shape until after the states start certifying results. I'd hope this mess is resolved by then though.

I get why Trump is stalling, but there's no path, and really, there never was one. But he needs to be convinced that what he's doing will cause irreparable harm to the republic. He needs to move on. But I'm not really expecting him to.

Even if the legislature in PA assigns electors, the house and senate decide which electors get selected. If there is a tie and it goes back to the Governor of the state. Pretty much prevents WI or PA from doing anything since they have Democrat governors.

 

[not2rich]

At this point, this all just seems like a desperate, and actually quite weak effort. Elections are matters of state law and DOJ isn't going to be able to start examining (auditing) election results - I think they would have to get a federal warrant based on demonstrable probable cause before they even get access to votes and the process by which states have conducted the election.

The idea that tens of thousands of votes can be shown to have been illegally cast remains a tough sell. Elections have officials, and process, and safeguards that include observers and redundancies. Some kind of massively coordinated effort on the inside to change or manufacture votes is outlandish. It's like the Republican county commissioner that oversees elections in Philadelphia said, "it's deranged."

So if inside job is unlikely, what might an effort at that kind of scale would it take to result in 5-digit victories in six swing states? Registering fake people? I don't think that's very easy and illegal under state and federal law. Stealing tens or hundreds of thousands of mail ballots that were intended for other registered voters and sending them in? That too seems quite hard to imagine that it could be coordinated that that kind of result.

It just doesn't seem that the litigation or law enforcement routes will bear enough fruit to make a difference. I think the more worrisome area is whether GOP-controlled state governments attempt to craft a way to disregard their results. Only GA and AZ have full GOP control, but PA, WI, and MI have GOP control of the state legislature, and the electoral process does give more power to state legislatures than they typically have.

Unless there really is some kind of evidence of enough fraud or demonstrably wrongly counted votes (doesn't seem likely at this point), the question becomes how far will some of these people go to perpetrate what is effectively a coup? I remain convinced that it won't be enough to matter.

The fact that we're even entertaining "how far will some of these people go to perpetrate what is effectively a coup" is completely outrageous. And if they try it, then will have effectively started a real civil war.

 

[superchuck500]

The fact that we're even entertaining "how far will some of these people go to perpetrate what is effectively a coup" is completely outrageous. And if they try it, then will have effectively started a real civil war.

I agree - but it also means that until it happens, we should appreciate the gravity of assuming they're going to.

 

[not2rich]

I'm not sure this is a real threat to do anything other than placate the petulant child currently in the Oval Office. But the fact so many are willing and able to placate is disturbing.

 

[superchuck500]

What the hell is he on about?

 

[not2rich]

I agree - but it also means that until it happens, we should appreciate the gravity of assuming they're going to.

If we wait until it happens while giving them the benefit of the doubt, and then it actually happens... then what?

 

[Maxp]

This is real...

 

[GrandAdmiral]

This is real...

Damn shame