The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (2 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[FullMonte]

How do we know if the USPS could handle the increased volume especially during Covid?

Well, on average the post office handles almost 500 million pieces of mail every day. Assuming mail-in ballots are sent out 10 days prior to the election, that means that in that time period the post office would handle 5 billion pieces of mail. If every single person who voted in 2016 voted by mail this year, that would be 130 million additional pieces of mail during that time. That's an increase of 3%. If the post office can't handle a 3% increase in mail for 10 days, they have some serious issues.

 

[Complex Kid]

Well, on average the post office handles almost 500 million pieces of mail every day. Assuming mail-in ballots are sent out 10 days prior to the election, that means that in that time period the post office would handle 5 billion pieces of mail. If every single person who voted in 2016 voted by mail this year, that would be 130 million additional pieces of mail during that time. That's an increase of 3%. If the post office can't handle a 3% increase in mail for 10 days, they have some serious issues.

Just start ramping up the "holiday season" hiring two months earlier than usual right now and they should be set.

They should be ramping up hiring for the holiday season right now anyway so it shouldn't be an issue.

USPS is Hiring Soon for the Holidays

Chicago, IL — The U.S. Postal Service will be hiring seasonal employees in the coming months and other temporary and career positions to work at one of the mail processing facilities in the Chicago area or a delivery unit. The holiday period is from mid-November 2018 to early January 2019.

about.usps.com

 

[zztop]

I'd say voter fraud is an issue. but not the way some might think. I mean, Trump just hired one of his donors to run the USPS. There couldn't possibly be any conflict of interest there

 

[SaintForLife]

Washington's Secretary of State Kim Wyman talks about some of the issues and time frame that's needed to implement a Mail In system of voting:

CHANG: What do you think other states can learn from Washington state's experience? For example, is it feasible to switch the entire country over to a mail-in system by this November, you think?

WYMAN: Well, you know, when you look at the states that have moved to vote-by-mail or are moving currently to vote-by-mail, it's taken them, you know, five to 10 years to do that because you need to build in the capacity for the volume. You need to have high-speed ballot sorters and envelope sorters to deal with the incoming mail. And right now the question is, is that equipment even in the supply chain? Is it even available? You also need to build up the staffing and the space requirements, especially in COVID-19, to be able to have that machinery to have that production.

So I think that it's a heavy lift for states that are in low percentage of absentee ballots currently, like, you know - like Tennessee, where you see 2% of their ballots cast by mail. They could probably have an expansion of absentee voting, but they couldn't make the switch completely to vote-by-mail between now and November.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Washington's Secretary of State Kim Wyman talks about some of the issues and time frame that's needed to implement a Mail In system of voting:

CHANG: What do you think other states can learn from Washington state's experience? For example, is it feasible to switch the entire country over to a mail-in system by this November, you think?

WYMAN: Well, you know, when you look at the states that have moved to vote-by-mail or are moving currently to vote-by-mail, it's taken them, you know, five to 10 years to do that because you need to build in the capacity for the volume. You need to have high-speed ballot sorters and envelope sorters to deal with the incoming mail. And right now the question is, is that equipment even in the supply chain? Is it even available? You also need to build up the staffing and the space requirements, especially in COVID-19, to be able to have that machinery to have that production.

So I think that it's a heavy lift for states that are in low percentage of absentee ballots currently, like, you know - like Tennessee, where you see 2% of their ballots cast by mail. They could probably have an expansion of absentee voting, but they couldn't make the switch completely to vote-by-mail between now and November.

Expansion of absentee voting is exactly what we are discussing. Make the option available to all who want it while still maintaining in-person voting for those who choose it. Looks like we are in agreement on this.

 

[Richard]

My concern isn't based in a belief that there would be widespread fraud, but the ability to count that many ballots. Some local elections could have a dozen or more offices up for election and each of those elections would also need to be counted by hand. If you recall the clustermuck of the recount of one office in one county in 2000, you might get a sense of the scale of problems that could exist. I believe that if those states that are currently doing mail-in balloting continue to do so and other states simply beef up their absentee ballot procedures, things could work fine. I have no problem with mailing absentee applications to all registered voters either, but I believe that would be expensive, time consuming and potentially confusing to voters.

 

[MT15]

SFL, I think you are arguing against nobody. Nobody thinks we can switch to entirely mail in voting by this November. What people are rightfully calling out is the absurdity of the claims that mail in voting will be widely fraudulent. Even your quote above doesn’t support fraud, just an inability to efficiently handle a huge ramp up.

That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to expand mail in voting this November as much as we can. It doesn’t mean that we should go along with the extreme partisanship that Republicans are pushing here with their “all votes have to be counted by Election Day or they don’t get to be tallied” nonsense.

It just makes no sense to oppose doing as much mail in voting as we can, in the middle of the botched handling of a massive pandemic. If it takes several days to finish the tally, that hurts no one. In fact, the states should take their time and be sure all mail in ballots are properly validated and properly tallied.

Who could argue against that?

 

[SaintForLife]

Expansion of absentee voting is exactly what we are discussing. Make the option available to all who want it while still maintaining in-person voting for those who choose it. Looks like we are in agreement on this.

Can't anyone request an absentee ballot already? I thought you were saying that this election needed to be exclusively by mail due to Covid.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Can't anyone request an absentee ballot already?

That depends on the state. Alabama has instituted an emergency rule that allows for people to request absentee ballots due to the current state of emergency, but I had to Google it to find it. I've seen no TV ads or billboards nor have I heard any radio ads discussing this. It needs to be widely publicized, otherwise it is pointless. A section on the Secretary of State website does little good in a state where a full 25% of households don't have internet access.

I thought you were saying that this election needed to be exclusively by mail due to Covid.

I did not say this. In post #226, I explicitly stated that I am not talking not about wholesale change, but an expansion of mail-in voting availability. I reiterated this in a few more posts. Then, in post #242, I asked once more about expanded access to mail-in voting.

If you thought I was advocating for exclusive mail-in voting, it's because you either failed to comprehend my posts or you were creating a straw man.

 

[JRad]

Can't anyone request an absentee ballot already? I thought you were saying that this election needed to be exclusively by mail due to Covid.

Have to have a reason, and not every state has allowed for a COVID exception.

 

[bdb13]

I think it easily makes the most sense to keep polling places open on election day and to allow anyone to request an absentee/mail in ballot for any reason.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I think it easily makes the most sense to keep polling places open on election day and to allow anyone to request an absentee/mail in ballot for any reason.

Agreed. It also needs to come with an ad campaign and outreach to make sure every single voter knows that they can request an absentee ballot for any reason this year.

 

[insidejob]

I think it easily makes the most sense to keep polling places open on election day and to allow anyone to request an absentee/mail in ballot for any reason.

Me too. I tested how hard it would be to get an absentee ballot for the primaries in LA and it was simple. COVID was listed as one of the reasons for requesting one too.

ETA: I ended up voting early in person though. I just wanted to see how hard it would be and long it would take to get the ballot.

 

[Lapaz]

My concern isn't based in a belief that there would be widespread fraud, but the ability to count that many ballots. Some local elections could have a dozen or more offices up for election and each of those elections would also need to be counted by hand. If you recall the clustermuck of the recount of one office in one county in 2000, you might get a sense of the scale of problems that could exist. I believe that if those states that are currently doing mail-in balloting continue to do so and other states simply beef up their absentee ballot procedures, things could work fine. I have no problem with mailing absentee applications to all registered voters either, but I believe that would be expensive, time consuming and potentially confusing to voters.

Why does it have to be counted by hand? In Alabama, I fill-in a ballot, and put it in a machine. Why can't all of the ballots be pushed through the same machine? I understand that some states may allow different methods of counting votes, but I would expect most states to use their existing systems. If a state already uses machines, then the only difference is that workers would have to put the ballots in the machines, rather than the voters. Do any states count absentee ballots by hand?

 

[dtc]

I think it easily makes the most sense to keep polling places open on election day and to allow anyone to request an absentee/mail in ballot for any reason.

Or farm it all out to McDonalds and Amazon. If McDonalds can serve 20,000 crummy burgers per day through a drive thru and Amazon can deliver canned soup in an hour via drone, they'll figure it out.

 

[Richard]

Why does it have to be counted by hand? In Alabama, I fill-in a ballot, and put it in a machine. Why can't all of the ballots be pushed through the same machine? I understand that some states may allow different methods of counting votes, but I would expect most states to use their existing systems. If a state already uses machines, then the only difference is that workers would have to put the ballots in the machines, rather than the voters. Do any states count absentee ballots by hand?

I don't know about other states, but in Mississippi, we use machines that record your votes in all races electronically. Absentee votes are counted by hand. We have no machines that record votes submitted on written ballots to my knowledge, so I am assuming that if we had an all mail-in election, it would require the state to acquire the same type of machines Alabama uses. If we had some in person voting, but most people voted absentee, each voting district would have to count those by hand. Due to the confusion in setting up new voting methods and new types of ballots in this short time frame, combined with the cost of new equipment, changing to the Alabama system just wouldn't work for us. We should probably stick to voting in person and install strict mask and distancing rules at polling places. Anyone with health issues or concerns with voting in person should request an absentee ballot. I also wouldn't be opposed to having voting allowed over 2-3 days if that would allow more people to vote and reduce crowding.

 

[superchuck500]

Washington's Secretary of State Kim Wyman talks about some of the issues and time frame that's needed to implement a Mail In system of voting:

CHANG: What do you think other states can learn from Washington state's experience? For example, is it feasible to switch the entire country over to a mail-in system by this November, you think?

WYMAN: Well, you know, when you look at the states that have moved to vote-by-mail or are moving currently to vote-by-mail, it's taken them, you know, five to 10 years to do that because you need to build in the capacity for the volume. You need to have high-speed ballot sorters and envelope sorters to deal with the incoming mail. And right now the question is, is that equipment even in the supply chain? Is it even available? You also need to build up the staffing and the space requirements, especially in COVID-19, to be able to have that machinery to have that production.

So I think that it's a heavy lift for states that are in low percentage of absentee ballots currently, like, you know - like Tennessee, where you see 2% of their ballots cast by mail. They could probably have an expansion of absentee voting, but they couldn't make the switch completely to vote-by-mail between now and November.

I have said all along that the risk is that states wait too late to try to shift to a mail-based voting system. I don’t buy the 5 to 10 years bit but it is a problem to try to make it happen now or even later. And it’s also not lost on me that resistance from the president and Republicans has hampered the effort so substantially that probably killed it in many places.

So congratulations - another sensible Covid adaptation that would be helpful and well within our capacity to achieve shut down or made a cluster fork by the cess pool of American politics.

 

[not2rich]

Or farm it all out to McDonalds and Amazon. If McDonalds can serve 20,000 crummy burgers per day through a drive thru and Amazon can deliver canned soup in an hour via drone, they'll figure it out.

I know this was a tongue in cheek comment, but it's actually not a bad idea. But the GOP would never go for it if they thought more D's would be able to vote. They want to make it super easy for R's to vote - even if it means "fraudulent" mail in votes. They want Democratic district voters to have to wait in line for hours, or have their mail in ballots delayed by weeks, whatever necessary to retain power. Whatever you want to call the system we have, it's not "democracy."