The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (3 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[Booker]

Every state already has some level of mail-in voting. Again, this is not something that needs to be implemented because it already exists. Is there an issue with the integrity and security of absentee votes that are sent submitted through the mail? Is there rampant voter fraud in states like Colorado that already use a mail-in based system?

No.

No, Fraud Isn't Rampant in Colorado's Mail-In Voting System

President Donald Trump has cited fraud concerns for why widespread mail-in voting doesn't work. But Colorado has proven that's simply not true.

www.5280.com

 

[dtc]

I disagree that exclusive mail in voting on a national scale could be debated, implemented, and the integrity and security of the votes could be trusted in 7 months while we are dealing with Covid.

Ok, but you think we might develop a vaccine in 9 months that usually takes years, right?

You think we can log on to our bank accounts and pay our bills on line, but no way we can vote?

How about being a little more positive? If it requires triple verification and can be proven safe, would you change your mind?

Ever signed for a loan or mortgage - closed on a property using DotLoop or digital signatures that require multiple layers of security?

The technology already exists.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

No.

No, Fraud Isn't Rampant in Colorado's Mail-In Voting System

President Donald Trump has cited fraud concerns for why widespread mail-in voting doesn't work. But Colorado has proven that's simply not true.

www.5280.com

Thank you for putting the answer here where SFL can see it.

 

[SaintForLife]

Thank you for putting the answer here where SFL can see it.

Their system is already in place. I know that all states already have absentee mail in ballots, but the scale for the everyone voting by mail is a huge difference. It's okay if we disgree about this. I think it could work in the future. I just disagree on the timeline being possible so close to the election.

 

[CoolBrees]

Saintforlife, I am asking honestly.

What would a mail in voter fraud conspiracy look like? What are you suggesting could happen?

Everyone knows an election is coming. We get emails and texts from the state of Oregon that our ballots were mailed out. It even has a link if you don’t get your ballot. They are sent out weeks ahead of the election and you can send it in or carry it to a ballot box on Election Day if you want. There is no voting at the polling station, only an official drop box and 1 election official. It is the easiest way to vote I have ever had and I have voted in 5 states (not the same year). Also no one has to miss work which is the biggest reason to me. Either that or make Election Day a federal holiday.

But more on those ballots-

They have bar codes. I can log into the state and see that my envelope made it. More importantly if I request, I can SEE MY SIGNATURE.

If anyone really looks at it objectively, there isn’t a downside.

Sure you can point to an ad hoc effort in New York. Here we are talking about months of time with the voter roles already filled, not a primary. The ballots are the same they just need to go into an envelope. Hell we could print them now.

 

[SaintForLife]

Ok, but you think we might develop a vaccine in 9 months that usually takes years, right?

OMG dude, where do you come up with these kind of posts? I never said anything close to that. I think it's wishful thinking to expect a vaccine by the end of this year or even the beginning of next year. I believe the fastest vaccine created was 4 years. I think we are looking at 2 years at best for development and production of a vaccine.

You think we can log on to our bank accounts and pay our bills on line, but no way we can vote?

How about being a little more positive? If it requires triple verification and can be proven safe, would you change your mind?

Ever signed for a loan or mortgage - closed on a property using DotLoop or digital signatures that require multiple layers of security?

The technology already exists.

I never said exclusive mail in voting couldn't work. My issue is mostly the timeline to get it done and some questions about the security when it's on a massive scale.

 

[SaintForLife]

Saintforlife, I am asking honestly.

What would a mail in voter fraud conspiracy look like? What are you suggesting could happen?

Everyone knows an election is coming. We get emails and texts from the state of Oregon that our ballots were mailed out. It even has a link if you don’t get your ballot. They are sent out weeks ahead of the election and you can send it in or carry it to a ballot box on Election Day if you want. There is no voting at the polling station, only an official drop box and 1 election official. It is the easiest way to vote I have ever had and I have voted in 5 states (not the same year). Also no one has to miss work which is the biggest reason to me. Either that or make Election Day a federal holiday.

But more on those ballots-

They have bar codes. I can log into the state and see that my envelope made it. More importantly if I request, I can SEE MY SIGNATURE.

If anyone really looks at it objectively, there isn’t a downside.

Sure you can point to an ad hoc effort in New York. Here we are talking about months of time with the voter roles already filled, not a primary. The ballots are the same they just need to go into an envelope. Hell we could print them now.

I have no idea what a voter fraud conspiracy would look like because we've never had national elections through only mail in voting. The fact that 1.1 million stimulus checks went out to dead people doesn't give me confidence in the government rushing to put together mail in voting for 50 states.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/25/1point4-billion-in-stimulus-checks-sent-to-deceased-individuals.html

Once again, Oregon's system is already in place.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I have no idea what a voter fraud conspiracy would look like because we've never had national elections through only mail in voting. The fact that 1.1 million stimulus checks went out to dead people doesn't give me confidence in the government rushing to put together mail in voting for 50 states.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/25/1point4-billion-in-stimulus-checks-sent-to-deceased-individuals.html

Once again, Oregon's system is already in place.

Federally issued stimulus checks and state issued ballots aren't coming from the same place, nor are the names and addresses drawn from the same database. The federal government only has to ensure that the USPS is ready to handle the increased volume.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Their system is already in place. I know that all states already have absentee mail in ballots, but the scale for the everyone voting by mail is a huge difference. It's okay if we disgree about this. I think it could work in the future. I just disagree on the timeline being possible so close to the election.

It wasn't close to the election when this pandemic set in, though. Covid-19 was declared a pandemic by the WHO on March 11th. A national emergency was declared in the United States two days later.

If states began preparing to expand mail-in voting on April 1st, they would have had over six months to work on it before ballots needed to be mailed in October. Are you of the opinion that six months is not enough time for an individual state to expand access to mail-in voting and the federal government to make sure the USPS is ready to go?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/icd/Announcement-New-ICD-code-for-coronavirus-3-18-2020.pdf

 

[SaintForLife]

Federally issued stimulus checks and state issued ballots aren't coming from the same place, nor are the names and addresses drawn from the same database. The federal government only has to ensure that the USPS is ready to handle the increased volume.

How do we know if the USPS could handle the increased volume especially during Covid?

I know they come from different places. I was just using it as an example of when the federal government tries to rush something huge.

 

[SaintForLife]

It wasn't close to the election when this pandemic set in, though. Covid-19 was declared a pandemic by the WHO on March 11th. A national emergency was declared in the United States two days later.

If states began preparing to expand mail-in voting on April 1st, they would have had over six months to work on it before ballots needed to be mailed in October. Are you of the opinion that six months is not enough time for an individual state to expand access to mail-in voting and the federal government to make sure the USPS is ready to go?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/icd/Announcement-New-ICD-code-for-coronavirus-3-18-2020.pdf

I have no idea. Now that we are in August the timeline doesn't seem possible.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

How do we know if the USPS could handle the increased volume especially during Covid?

I know they come from different places. I was just using it as an example of when the federal government tries to rush something huge.

It's still not an apt comparison because the federal government isn't rushing something. Ensuring that mail facilities have the capability to temporarily handle an increase in volume is not the same as printing and distributing millions of checks and cards.

And we don't know if they could handle the increase. That's why you start prepping ASAP. If you find out they can't, you urge the states to make ballot drop off locations readily available.

I have no idea. Now that we are in August the timeline doesn't seem possible.

It seems to me like you are finding reasons to dismiss mail-in voting without actually acknowledging that people are addressing your concerns. It reminds me of a line from a deleted scene in Pulp Fiction when Mia Wallace (played by Uma Thurman) is asking a bunch of 'get to know you' type question to Vincent Vega (played by John Travolta). One of the questions is, "In conversation, do you listen or wait to talk?" His response is, "I have to admit that I wait to talk."

People are taking time to respond and engage with questions of their own, and you seem more interested in moving on to the next point without acknowledging any of this.

 

[brandon]

I just disagree on the timeline being possible so close to the election.

Just so we’re clear, though. You’re totally basing this on your gut feeling, and not any actual research or feasibility studies? You have nothing to base any of this on except for your feeling?

 

[SaintForLife]

It's still not an apt comparison because the federal government isn't rushing something. Ensuring that mail facilities have the capability to temporarily handle an increase in volume is not the same as printing and distributing millions of checks and cards.

And we don't know if they could handle the increase. That's why you start prepping ASAP. If you find out they can't, you urge the states to make ballot drop off locations readily available.



It seems to me like you are finding reasons to dismiss mail-in voting without actually acknowledging that people are addressing your concerns. It reminds me of a line from a deleted scene in Pulp Fiction when Mia Wallace (played by Uma Thurman) is asking a bunch of 'get to know you' type question to Vincent Vega (played by John Travolta). One of the questions is, "In conversation, do you listen or wait to talk?" His response is, "I have to admit that I wait to talk."

People are taking time to respond and engage with questions of their own, and you seem more interested in moving on to the next point without acknowledging any of this.

I had a good faith debate with you. I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree. There isn't a need for you to act like I'm not arguing in good faith just because I won't agree with you. I've said all I can on this subject.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I had a good faith debate with you. I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree. There isn't a need for you to act like I'm not arguing in good faith just because I won't agree with you. I've said all I can on this subject.

It's not the disagreement and I never stated that it was a lack of agreement that led me to this conclusion. Please do not put words in my mouth or ascribe motives to me that are not supported by any evidence.

I don't believe you to be discussing this in good faith because you have dismissed nearly every argument by moving on to the next. You admit to having zero reason behind your arguments, yet you keep making them. Not all opinions are created equally. You have failed to bring any facts outside of one hastily organized effort in a city that was in the process of being decimated by coronavirus. You dismiss the infrastructure already in place to both process ballots in every single state and to deliver the ballots through a federal institution.

You also twice tried to equate a one time federal stimulus delivery based on one national database to state level efforts with recipients in a completely different database that is used on a regular basis to prepare and then mail ballots multiple times per year in some years.

 

[Lapaz]

How do we know if the USPS could handle the increased volume especially during Covid?

I know they come from different places. I was just using it as an example of when the federal government tries to rush something huge.

There are states that are setting up drop boxes to bypass the USPS. Guess who opposes that?

The Trump campaign is suing Pennsylvania over how to run the 2020 election

The Trump campaign sued Pennsylvania state and county elections officials, saying mail ballot drop boxes are unconstitutional in the way they were used in the June 2 primary election.

www.inquirer.com

“Defendants have sacrificed the sanctity of in-person voting at the altar of unmonitored mail-in voting and have exponentially enhanced the threat that fraudulent or otherwise ineligible ballots will be cast and counted in the forthcoming general election."

The argument of "sanctity of in-person voting" defies logic. When did that become sanctified? Furthermore, if the USPS can handle the extra volume it sees during Christmas by hiring extra people, then it can do it for the mail-in votes. Of course they might need slightly more funding. Guess who is proposing to cut the USPS funding? Not exactly Trump, but his head of the USPS.

"https://www.marketwatch.com/story/e...-service-chief-pushes-cost-cutting-2020-07-15"

Then all of this disingenuous and insincere criticism about security of mail-in votes is suddenly irrelevant in Florida, even though Florida had the hanging chad fiasco, and hasn't shown itself to be any better than any other state.

Trump backtracks on mail-in voting, says it's OK to do in Florida

The president's shift on mail-in voting comes as new data indicates the president’s assault on the practice may backfire on him come November.

www.politico.com

 

[wardorican]

In his Axios interview, it sounded like he thinks that people will just receive ballots in the mail, not applications for ballots.

Then, he pivoted and talked about how many more people will do it, so the scale will be a problem.

It was pointed out that his campaign encourages mail in voting. "because they have to", but he's litigating it.

Why are you against this? I don't know, but I am..

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Mail-in voting just makes so much sense with or without the pandemic. I can't wait to see how the judge in Penn. rules on the suit Trump's campaign filed.