The Legacy Military Industrial Complex is Suffocating our Country's Growth (1 Viewer)

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Maxp

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I recently read the following article about the battle SpaceX fought competing with the aerospace establishment for government contracts and it made me wonder just how much further we'd be ahead if we didn't have these entrenched corporations vacuuming up public treasure. All the major auto manufacturers, the oil companies, some banks tried pretty hard to squash Tesla before they could become competitive and failed. All those same companies needed bailouts and the government to force them to make better products.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin(ULA), Northrup Grumman, and Blue Origin were given billions to develop a rocket with abilities that SpaceX Falcon Heavy already has. Of that 2.2 billion given to those companies, zero rockets have been produced and only one engine by Blue Origin that is now going to be used by ULA. So what the hell did ULA do with the 1 billion dollars they were given to make a rocket? We as a country need to start letting these behemoths fail. Better companies will rise from their dust.

 

The moose

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I am far from a Elon fan.


The automobile problems are similar to the way all the modern companies play ball do something now then ask for forgiveness. Just like Uber!

Yes banks were against the whole consumer direct auto sales. What does that mean? No dealerships no outside finance. Hell that game plan gives less people jobs in general. Sales on on the web and to a call center

It is not a new Porsche tried to pull that move in the early 80s but already had dealerships in the USA and it failed. Infact the states with the dealership laws on the books are a direct result of what Porsche tried to pull.

Yes in theory it should save the customer but it doesn't. It just means the pie doesn't get cut and corporate profits go thru the roof because they get all the money without building dealerships, service centers, auto body shops, at the same rate the competition does and employ a fraction of the people.

The Tesla is going into the auto insurance business next to get it all.

Tesla's are ungodly crazy to insure because of the lack of dealerships oops they call them galleries. They also lack serious repair centers and parts supply chains. Rather than fix the problem they will now try to insure you rather than invest what the dealerships do to get that portion of the pie.



I will be the first to say what we invest in the military is staggering. Cutting back spending would allow America to invest in things that Americans really need like education and on and on and on.

Considering one of our biggest threats north Korea doesn't even own airplanes made in the modern era. They don't have the capital for fuel so they can't train pilots. Yet a f35 is costing us a cool 100 million and 40k an hour to be in the air. Why on earth do we spend so much?

I know an extra 100 million could give our grossly underpaid teachers a raise! Considering the us only has 3.2 million public school teachers. And that is one air plane and not the most expensive one either the f22 is 339 million!

What we spend is crazy and yes I understand the military is the largest employer in America by leaps and bounds especially if you count all the companies that exist only to supply the military and sub contractors.

Oh one last thing the subcontract world only exist to fork employees. The military subs shirt to not pay for pensions and so forth. That is where the savings come from.
 
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Maxp

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The average cost to insure a model 3 is less than a BMW 430i. Costs will come down as more and more EVs hit the road. No matter what your opinion on the company, the artificial barriers to entry propped up by legacy industry is stifling our ability to produce. How much of a Chevy is made in the 🇺🇸?
 

The moose

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The average cost to insure a model 3 is less than a BMW 430i. Costs will come down as more and more EVs hit the road. No matter what your opinion on the company, the artificial barriers to entry propped up by legacy industry is stifling our ability to produce. How much of a Chevy is made in the 🇺🇸?
The average cost to insure a model 3 is less than a BMW 430i. Costs will come down as more and more EVs hit the road. No matter what your opinion on the company, the artificial barriers to entry propped up by legacy industry is stifling our ability to produce. How much of a Chevy is made in the 🇺🇸?

Yep I knew I would run into a fanboy.

Do you own one?

Yep a bit over fifty percent of the model three is made in the USA for now without that billion dollar tax break from Nevada all the batteries would come from China. By the way the Ford ranger is the most American vehicle


At what cost? You could say the direct to consumer model has a ton to do with that. But really with dealerships for that tiny cut of the actual pie they purchase land build buildings employ people lots and lots of people in all areas of America that Tesla is not doing. Oh an make service easy.

Well if your playing with a BMW that is not a motorcycle or a low production M you should lease. I like BMWs and own a r1150rt that I would not trade for anything all drop in value like a rock got mine used.

If the insurance is less I am floored. Almost any city has a bunch of shops that can repair any German car yet in all of the USA they only have four Tesla body shops. Two in California one in Illinois and one in Maryland. Four in the entire country.

That is what dealerships are for employment and service.

If you own a Tesla I hope you don't need body work. Your rear bumper stays on in puddles and so forth.

So no I don't buy the hype. The Elon Musk direct sales it killing decent paying jobs all over America.
 
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Maxp

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I don't own a Tesla and never have, but I do own a BMW. Whether or not you like the company, Tesla succeeded in creating a new car brand using new technology despite significant artificial barriers to entry put in place by legacy military industrial complex companies. None of which have innovated without being forced to by regulation or foreign competition. But let's look more at the SpaceX example. Companies like Boeing have been bilking the public with no accountability for decades. SpaceX has exceeded with a fraction of the money, personnel, and infrastructure. The only reason we are talking about Musk companies is because he is one person in a very short list who has been able to best the grossly unfair competition. There should be more names on that list.
 

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I wish Tesla (fork Elon Musk) got brought up as much as Solyndra when it comes to the monies given out during the first financial crisis the R’s started.

I guess the wildly successful investment in a company that Is now the largest auto manufacturer in America, which didn’t even pay it back with interest, doesn’t really fit the narrative.

America should be the majority holder of Tesla, SpaceX and every other company that weasel sits atop. He (They) wouldn’t be anywhere without the billions in welfare we gave.
 

The moose

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I don't own a Tesla and never have, but I do own a BMW. Whether or not you like the company, Tesla succeeded in creating a new car brand using new technology despite significant artificial barriers to entry put in place by legacy military industrial complex companies. None of which have innovated without being forced to by regulation or foreign competition. But let's look more at the SpaceX example. Companies like Boeing have been bilking the public with no accountability for decades. SpaceX has exceeded with a fraction of the money, personnel, and infrastructure. The only reason we are talking about Musk companies is because he is one person in a very short list who has been able to best the grossly unfair competition. There should be more names on that list.

If you agree his business model is about not employing people to make the bottom line work. If you agree the business model is fill the majority of Reno jobs with so called temp workers to save just like the devil evil GM.

Right now in the us Tesla is working at 25 percent of the work force. Do you think it will ever come back? Or do you just think the China plant will make the batteries for all of them now instead of just the expensive models?

Come on they play every trick that the auto industry does and then they don't have dealerships that employ people locally.

It is like the Uber scam or the Amazon subcontract delivery scams. It is about not paying humans a living wage.

They are all like Walmart without greeters.

I will agree they are competing with some major players but not playing the same game.
 
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Maxp

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Do you have a source backing up Tesla or SpaceX not paying back loans? All the other forms of subsidies were available and given to competitors.
 

The moose

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Do you have a source backing up Tesla or SpaceX not paying back loans? All the other forms of subsidies were available and given to competitors.
Just Google it. They get plenty of help or government welfair for the rich.




Here is one from 2015 space x got 4.9 billion out of your uncle!





Elon nursing like a new born calf. His companies are welfair babies.
 
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Maxp

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If you agree his business model is about not employing people to make the bottom line work. If you agree the business model is fill the majority of Reno jobs with so called temp workers to save just like the devil evil GM.

Right now in the us Tesla is working at 25 percent of the work force. Do you think it will ever come back? Or do you just think the China plant will make the batteries for all of them now instead of just the expensive models?

Come on they play every trick that the auto industry does and then they don't have dealerships that employ people locally.

It is like the Uber scam or the Amazon subcontract delivery scams. It is about not paying humans a living wage.

They are all like Walmart without greeters.

I will agree they are competing with some major players but not playing the same game.
I see the points you are making and agree with some of them. My main point, probably not well defined, is that the US tax payer should benefit more from its sponsorship of industry. Did NASA and the Defense Department get a much cheaper, better vehicle for delivering payloads in orbit using American rockets with SpaceX? Answer, yes unquestionably. Especially in comparison to the competition. Did the loan provided Tesla(which was repaid) and the EV subsidies(available to all manufacturers) result in new more efficient automotive technology? Again, absolutely.
 

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They paid them back, they just didn’t have to pay interest. An interest free loan is welfare.

There is absolutely no upside for the lender. Either you just gave them money to burn and pay back in years, when that money could have been earning for you, or they go belly up and you are stuck holding the bag. Like Solyndra without the Chinese price fixing
 

The moose

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I see the points you are making and agree with some of them. My main point, probably not well defined, is that the US tax payer should benefit more from its sponsorship of industry. Did NASA and the Defense Department get a much cheaper, better vehicle for delivering payloads in orbit using American rockets with SpaceX? Answer, yes unquestionably. Especially in comparison to the competition. Did the loan provided Tesla(which was repaid) and the EV subsidies(available to all manufacturers) result in new more efficient automotive technology? Again, absolutely.

But then again why was that subcontracted out in the first place? So NASA doesn't have to employ or pension to employees! It is not like he did this all on his own. He got five billion dollar grant.

Dude this is all about not paying people!
 

CoolBrees

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And one more thing. Those subsidies aren’t/ weren’t available to everyone. Not even in the same Operating space. You have to first be in one of the qualifying industries and meet criteria that most small companies can’t meet. Like 10 years of established and provable EBITA vs COGS. Tesla used their former selves as leverage even though those factories for their roadster has been shuttered. They used the real estate to show profitability.

Fact is Tesla has been slowly moving their operations out of the US for years. Now they use “taxes” and other boogeymen to explain why they keep only dangling carrots for new plants in America; only to build them in China.
 
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Maxp

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm only aware of one plant in China. Is Tesla not building in Texas a brand new plant in Texas? So they will have three in the U.S., one in China, and one in Germany?
 
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Maxp

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SpaceX was not given billions. They were awarded contracts to supply the ISS and air force/DOD with service to space which they have done at a fraction of the price of ULA. Read the original article I posted. ULA was the sole contractor basically making their price per launch.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm only aware of one plant in China. Is Tesla not building in Texas a brand new plant in Texas? So they will have three in the U.S., one in China, and one in Germany?

Yep they are supposed to be building that truck thing outside of Austin.

Yep all the high end batteries come from China and sparks Nevada. Sparks only makes some of the cheap models batteries.

Well at least Texas did not give a billion dollars away for that factory like Nevada. Heck they did alright I think they gave up less than his performance bonus to get the plant in Texas.
 

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We also need to understand the difference between a factory and an assembly plant.

They are markedly different
 

The moose

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We also need to understand the difference between a factory and an assembly plant.

They are markedly different

Well considering that only a handful of cars are made with about 50% American parts all factories are in essence assembly plants.

That also has to do with how they classified value of parts. Door panels should not have the same value as say power plant. Like for instance the vast majority of Ford engines are made in Canada. That is why the Windsor family of engines was called that because the plant is in Windsor. Also I'd you purchase a part from an American supplier that is a sub assembly of parts from elsewhere it counts as American.

So when you consider the most American Tesla is the model s and the largest and most important part is the battery that comes from China. Does it matter that it is actually over 50 percent American?

Is the glove box door given the same value as the power source?


We can talk about government throwing money away but using musk as an example is poor. He has been in line for the government cheese as much as anyone else. So what he delivered a tad cheaper and on time this time when Americans funded the vast majority of operation by giving him five billion up front.
 

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