Socialsim is only possible through Coercion, by Paul (old title: Equity v. Equality and Government Policy) (4 Viewers)

[coldseat]

I thought of posting this in the All Things Racist thread, but ultimately felt it would be better in it's own thread. I ran across this opinion by George Will warning about the creeping danger of equity based government policy pushed by progressives. His overriding point is:

Harlan’s Plessy dissent insisted that the Constitution’s post-Civil War amendments forbid “the imposition of any burdens or disabilities that constitute badges of slavery or servitude.” Today, 125 years later, multiplying departures from colorblind government — myriad race-based preferential treatments — are becoming a different but also invidious badge: of permanent incapacity.

Laws or administrative policies adopted for (in the words of today’s chief justice, John G. Roberts Jr.) the “sordid” practice of “divvying us up by race” can be deleterious for the intended beneficiaries. Benefits allocated to a specially protected racial cohort might come to be seen as a badge of inferiority. Such preferences might seem to insinuate that recipients of government-dispensed special privileges cannot thrive without them.

Government spoils systems, racial or otherwise, wound their beneficiaries. Getting used to special dependency, and soon experiencing it as an entitlement, the beneficiaries might come to feel entitled to preferences forever. Hence, progressives working to supplant equality of opportunity with “equity” — race-conscious government allocation of social rewards — are profoundly insulting, and potentially injurious, to African Americans and other favored groups.

Canellos’s stirring biography resoundingly establishes that Harlan was a hero. So, what are those who today are trying to erase the great principle of colorblindness that Harlan championed?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/30/pursuing-equity-over-equality-reveals-nations-moral-regression/

This is a very convincing argument for equality based government policy, one that I used to believe in, but it ignores a lot of realities and history. First, it ignores that centuries of purposeful inequality in government policy have directly led to the economic, social, and community destabilization and destitution that prevented black families for accumulating wealth. And how those purposeful actions have lead to the astonishing difference in the wealth gap between black and white families that has only worsened over time. While conservative will acknowledge this wealth gap and pay lip service to closing it, they fail to admit/consider how equality based public policy (something we've been trying to implement in race neutral government policy since the 60's) has failed to correct the issue and in many case has served to exacerbate it. While race neutral, equality based government policy may be easier for white voters to accept, it fails to address the historic inequalities entrenched by centuries of purposeful government based inequality. John Oliver make this point perfectly in this piece on housing discrimination. It's a 30 minute commitment, but well worth it because he provides a lot of prospective.



My overall point here is that if we you actually care or want to correct the effects centuries has purposeful government inequality, you actually have to target the aid and remediation to the people who where targeted in the inequality (i.e. equity based government policy). Anything else is paying lip service to the problem and asking black people in particular to "just get over it".

 

[Goatman saint]

You have absolutely NO understanding of the Scandinavian model and the underlying ideology!

No, but he’s pretty consistent with sourcing the first paragraph on Wikipedia

 

[Dragon]

The Scandinavian model is NOT a socialist model but a merger of capitalism and socialism/social responsibility

The overall system being that the state provides certain basic human rights/services..

The right to a free education
The right to medical services as needed.
The right to 6 weeks paid vacation every year
The right to 12 month of maternity/Paternity leave for each child.
The right to a state pension when you become 67 years old
The right to a place to live
The right to a minimum pay for your labor

These rights also comes with responsibilities.

Everyone who can must work according to their abillities in order to receive help. Some may only work 4-6 hours a week due to illness or disabilities but they are really happy that this option exists because they maintain their connection to a workplace and colleagues. They will receive a normal pay and the company who employes them will receive a refund which covers the difference between the hours worked and a regular workweek.

If necessary they will be offered training/education to help them find a job which matches their skills and talents.


But also offers

Startup help to small businesses. No or very little taxation the first year.
Cheap loans for small business ventures.
Free mentor programs for startups
Free or cheap training in how to manage taxes, employees and regulations.

Some public services are a mixture of private and state owned, like transportation, communication and utillities. Most is 65% private and 35% state owned.

 

[Paul]

Swedish voucher program and lack of success

Is Sweden proof that school choice doesn't improve education?

Betsy DeVos’s school choice ideas are a reality in Sweden, where student performance has suffered. In the second of a three-part series, find out how school choice works in other parts of the world.

www.pbs.org

Swedish retirement takes 18.5% for state pension. Of that 2% a person can choose through that system what they want to invest in. Not exactly privatizing in the Bush sense of dumping social security into the stock market in essence a free money grab for investors.
As far as privatization of rail and road, they let private firms take over rural routes that made less money and yet still subsidize them. Many roads are private, which means the people who live next to them help pay the upkeep. So it’s hardly a private matter I want any part of.

I did not say that the voucher program was good or bad. All I said is that they use a voucher program which is a conservative issue here in America. The point of my post is that Sweden had to move from the far left to the center when they realize the socialist utopia was not going to happen.

AlI am trying to say that anything in excess can be a catastrophe. The point I am making is that Sweden is a capitalist nation which apparently was news for most in the forum.

BTW, the overwhelming majority of students in Sweden still attend public schools and do not use the vouchers. The decline in scores is likely multifactorial since the majority of students are in the pubic system.

The partial privatization of retirement is also a right wing issue in America.

 

[Paul]

The Scandinavian model is NOT a socialist model but a merger of capitalism and socialism/social responsibility

The overall system being that the state provides certain basic human rights/services..

The right to a free education
The right to medical services as needed.
The right to 6 weeks paid vacation every year
The right to 12 month of maternity/Paternity leave for each child.
The right to a state pension when you become 67 years old
The right to a place to live
The right to a minimum pay for your labor

These rights also comes with responsibilities.

Everyone who can must work according to their abillities in order to receive help. Some may only work 4-6 hours a week due to illness or disabilities but they are really happy that this option exists because they maintain their connection to a workplace and colleagues. They will receive a normal pay and the company who employes them will receive a refund which covers the difference between the hours worked and a regular workweek.

If necessary they will be offered training/education to help them find a job which matches their skills and talents.


But also offers

Startup help to small businesses. No or very little taxation the first year.
Cheap loans for small business ventures.
Free mentor programs for startups
Free or cheap training in how to manage taxes, employees and regulations.

Some public services are a mixture of private and state owned, like transportation, communication and utillities. Most is 65% private and 35% state owned.

Great post thanks.

Another aspect of the Nordic success is the fact that the citizens are united and there is only one tribe in the nation. IN this regard it is much easier for citizens to assume social responsibility for the well being of each other. OTOH, America is divided and lacks unity. We are a nation that is marching to civil war.

 

[RobF]

Ok, I can see how someone may think there is a contradiction. I see free college tuition, National medicare, and social programs as part of the mission of capitalism to help others. I do not see it as a mixed economy or democratic socialism.

Technically full scale socialism can only be imposed by coercion and that worries me.

Do you think taxation should be voluntary?

Because, practically, the programs you say you support are funded through taxation, which you also say you support. But taxation is imposed. You can't just opt out of it. And by your logic, that's coercion, authoritarian, and worries you.

 

[RobF]

The point I am making is that Sweden is a capitalist nation which apparently was news for most in the forum.

You're doing it again. Who, specifically, has said that Sweden is in no way capitalist?

You say it's "most in the forum", so I'm sure you should be able to be specific.

 

[Paul]

Do you think taxation should be voluntary?

Because, practically, the programs you say you support are funded through taxation, which you also say you support. But taxation is imposed. You can't just opt out of it. And by your logic, that's coercion, authoritarian, and worries you.

Taxation is coercion. That does not mean I have to accept more coercion. Left wingers (perhaps not you) always use this example to justify additional coercion by government.

 

[samiam5211]

Taxation is coercion. That does not mean I have to accept more coercion. Left wingers (perhaps not you) always use this example to justify additional coercion by government.

Everything in life is coercion.

Having to work to put food on the table is every bit as much coercion as taxation. At least if you fail to pay taxes and get put in prison, you will have food, clothing, and shelter.

 

[Paul]

Everything in life is coercion.

Having to work to put food on the table is every bit as much coercion as taxation. At least if you fail to pay taxes and get put in prison, you will have food, clothing, and shelter.

You make good points.

However, there is no need to have more coercion.

BTW, having to work for a wage is a form of slavery. Marx was correct.

 

[coldseat]

Ok, I can see how someone may think there is a contradiction. I see free college tuition, National medicare, and social programs as part of the mission of capitalism to help others. I do not see it as a mixed economy or democratic socialism.

You may not see it as a mixed economy, but that is exactly what it is. You can't just define terms on your own basis and expect us to accept it because you say so. It is not "the mission of capitalism to help others". Capitalism has no such mission.

What you're doing is injecting economic models with your personal value judgements (i.e "mission of capitalism") and filtering everything you post think/post through that lens and just expecting us to go along with your own personal definition of these terms. It's no wonder we keep going in the same circles in this discussion, like a broken record player.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I posted this in EE years ago
=====================

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is your kid’s teacher assuming you don’t have any books in your home.

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.

Being poor is knowing you’re being judged.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being Poor

Visit the post for more.

whatever.scalzi.com

 

[samiam5211]

You make good points.

However, there is no need to have more coercion.

BTW, having to work for a wage is a form of slavery. Marx was correct.

If we are measuring coercion in the aggregate, higher taxes actually reduce net coercion since taxing a few at the top much more, relieves some of the coercive factors for the many at the bottom.

So higher taxes could result in less coercion.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Another article I've posted before - from 2009
=======================

You have to be rich to be poor.

That's what some people who have never lived below the poverty line don't understand.

Put it another way: The poorer you are, the more things cost.

More in money, time, hassle, exhaustion, menace.

This is a fact of life that reality television and magazines don't often explain.........

Poverty 101: We'll start with the basics.

Like food: You don't have a car to get to a supermarket, much less to Costco or Trader Joe's, where the middle class goes to save money.

You don't have three hours to take the bus. So you buy groceries at the corner store, where a gallon of milk costs an extra dollar.

A loaf of bread there costs you $2.99 for white. For wheat, it's $3.79.

The clerk behind the counter tells you the gallon of leaking milk in the bottom of the back cooler is $4.99. She holds up four fingers to clarify.

The milk is beneath the shelf that holds beef bologna for $3.79. A pound of butter sells for $4.49.

In the back of the store are fruits and vegetables. The green peppers are shriveled, the bananas are more brown than yellow, the oranges are picked over.

(At a Safeway on Bradley Boulevard in Bethesda, the wheat bread costs $1.19, and white bread is on sale for $1.

A gallon of milk costs $3.49 -- $2.99 if you buy two gallons. A pound of butter is $2.49. Beef bologna is on sale, two packages for $5.)........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html

 

[Paul]

If we are measuring coercion in the aggregate, higher taxes actually reduce net coercion since taxing a few at the top much more, relieves some of the coercive factors for the many at the bottom.

So higher taxes could result in less coercion.

I cannot disagree with the above.

 

[Dragon]

Great post thanks.

Another aspect of the Nordic success is the fact that the citizens are united and there is only one tribe in the nation. IN this regard it is much easier for citizens to assume social responsibility for the well being of each other. OTOH, America is divided and lacks unity. We are a nation that is marching to civil war.

We have our anti-vax'eres and other knugleheads as well. But generally we're a rather laid back people and very down to earth and not very formal either. Mr/Mrs/Ms is very, very rarely used since most are on first name basis - that goes for teachers/students and also employees/employers.

Even the oldest son of our crown prince who will one day be king, attended regular public school with classmates from all walks of life

 

[Paul]

You may not see it as a mixed economy, but that is exactly what it is. You can't just define terms on your own basis and expect us to accept it because you say so. It is not "the mission of capitalism to help others". Capitalism has no such mission.

What you're doing is injecting economic models with your personal value judgements (i.e "mission of capitalism") and filtering everything you post think/post through that lens and just expecting us to go along with your own personal definition of these terms. It's no wonder we keep going in the same circles in this discussion, like a broken record player.

I do not like the term mixed economy because the so-called socialist component uses wealth rather than produce wealth. I rather call it capitalism with strong social programs.

 

[Goatman saint]

I did not say that the voucher program was good or bad. All I said is that they use a voucher program which is a conservative issue here in America. The point of my post is that Sweden had to move from the far left to the center when they realize the socialist utopia was not going to happen.

AlI am trying to say that anything in excess can be a catastrophe. The point I am making is that Sweden is a capitalist nation which apparently was news for most in the forum.

BTW, the overwhelming majority of students in Sweden still attend public schools and do not use the vouchers. The decline in scores is likely multifactorial since the majority of students are in the pubic system.

The partial privatization of retirement is also a right wing issue in America.

You cherry picked a couple of examples and applied tot he whole country. No Nordic country is what we would consider conservative at all. The fact they privatized some things (and if you did your research -I did) it basically moved the payments from the federal government to private individuals who were nearby and used them. Look up loads in Sweden if you need clarification
You also proved you didn’t read the article, as it directly states after adjusting for variables that private schools perform worse than public schools, a thing that numbers show is true for the vast majority in the US also. All they do is make parents feel happy because they teach what the parents want, not necessarily what kids need to learn.

 

[Goatman saint]

Great post thanks.

Another aspect of the Nordic success is the fact that the citizens are united and there is only one tribe in the nation. IN this regard it is much easier for citizens to assume social responsibility for the well being of each other. OTOH, America is divided and lacks unity. We are a nation that is marching to civil war.

1/4 of Sweden is foreign born, 1/3 have at least one parent who is an immigrant. Try again