Socialsim is only possible through Coercion, by Paul (old title: Equity v. Equality and Government Policy) (2 Viewers)

[coldseat]

I thought of posting this in the All Things Racist thread, but ultimately felt it would be better in it's own thread. I ran across this opinion by George Will warning about the creeping danger of equity based government policy pushed by progressives. His overriding point is:

Harlan’s Plessy dissent insisted that the Constitution’s post-Civil War amendments forbid “the imposition of any burdens or disabilities that constitute badges of slavery or servitude.” Today, 125 years later, multiplying departures from colorblind government — myriad race-based preferential treatments — are becoming a different but also invidious badge: of permanent incapacity.

Laws or administrative policies adopted for (in the words of today’s chief justice, John G. Roberts Jr.) the “sordid” practice of “divvying us up by race” can be deleterious for the intended beneficiaries. Benefits allocated to a specially protected racial cohort might come to be seen as a badge of inferiority. Such preferences might seem to insinuate that recipients of government-dispensed special privileges cannot thrive without them.

Government spoils systems, racial or otherwise, wound their beneficiaries. Getting used to special dependency, and soon experiencing it as an entitlement, the beneficiaries might come to feel entitled to preferences forever. Hence, progressives working to supplant equality of opportunity with “equity” — race-conscious government allocation of social rewards — are profoundly insulting, and potentially injurious, to African Americans and other favored groups.

Canellos’s stirring biography resoundingly establishes that Harlan was a hero. So, what are those who today are trying to erase the great principle of colorblindness that Harlan championed?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/30/pursuing-equity-over-equality-reveals-nations-moral-regression/

This is a very convincing argument for equality based government policy, one that I used to believe in, but it ignores a lot of realities and history. First, it ignores that centuries of purposeful inequality in government policy have directly led to the economic, social, and community destabilization and destitution that prevented black families for accumulating wealth. And how those purposeful actions have lead to the astonishing difference in the wealth gap between black and white families that has only worsened over time. While conservative will acknowledge this wealth gap and pay lip service to closing it, they fail to admit/consider how equality based public policy (something we've been trying to implement in race neutral government policy since the 60's) has failed to correct the issue and in many case has served to exacerbate it. While race neutral, equality based government policy may be easier for white voters to accept, it fails to address the historic inequalities entrenched by centuries of purposeful government based inequality. John Oliver make this point perfectly in this piece on housing discrimination. It's a 30 minute commitment, but well worth it because he provides a lot of prospective.



My overall point here is that if we you actually care or want to correct the effects centuries has purposeful government inequality, you actually have to target the aid and remediation to the people who where targeted in the inequality (i.e. equity based government policy). Anything else is paying lip service to the problem and asking black people in particular to "just get over it".

 

[Paul]

1/4 of Sweden is foreign born, 1/3 have at least one parent who is an immigrant. Try again

Yes, over the last few years there has been an explosion of immigrants. This has led to inequality which is anathema to them.

Nordic citizens experience a high sense of autonomy and freedom, as well as high levels of social trust towards each other, which play an important role in determining life satisfaction.

They are small nation s with a sense of unity and trust in each other. It is easier to coexist and to promote a more collective philosophy.

The Nordic Exceptionalism: What Explains Why the Nordic Countries Are Constantly Among the Happiest in the World

The World Happiness Report is a partnership of Gallup, the Oxford Wellbeing Research Centre, the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network, and the WHR’s Editorial Board. The report is produced under the editorial control of the WHR Editorial Board. From 2024, the World Happiness Report...

worldhappiness.report

 

[SFIDC3]

I am OK with raising taxes on the super rich. However, quite often the super rich do not pay themselves a salary therefore raising the tax on income to 90% will not do the job. The rich pay themselves with dividends which are taxed at a much lower rate. A tax hike on dividends will hurt those that are not necessarily rich. In any event the tax laws are written by congress members that receive donations from the rich. The Dems may say they are for the little guy, but that is not always the case.

You still didn't answer my question of why you label this as "sticking it to the rich"....

I think it is possible to tax dividends on the uber wealthy differently from others, correct? And it's not just tax dividends, it's making illegal to "trust freeze", eliminate "stepped up basis" loopholes, also make an honest effort to eliminate offshore tax evasion.

I do agree that the tax code favors the rich because the rich writes it....I'm a bit astounded at that last comment because the Dems are the only party that ever proposes tax fairness.

For a self described moderate you sure do go to lengths to criticize the Dems when the other side clearly has no interest at all in reforming the tax code, in fact they go in the complete opposite direction....

 

[Paul]

You still didn't answer my question of why you label this as "sticking it to the rich"....

I think it is possible to tax dividends on the uber wealthy differently from others, correct? And it's not just tax dividends, it's making illegal to "trust freeze", eliminate "stepped up basis" loopholes, also make an honest effort to eliminate offshore tax evasion.

I do agree that the tax code favors the rich because the rich writes it....I'm a bit astounded at that last comment because the Dems are the only party that ever proposes tax fairness.

For a self described moderate you sure do go to lengths to criticize the Dems when the other side clearly has no interest at all in reforming the tax code, in fact they go in the complete opposite direction....

Are you the guy that has trouble with idiomatic expressions? "Sticking it to the rich" is an idiomatic expression. It is often used by those that do not like class warfare.

I am a centrist and I have said that the liberals have done more for the poor than the Republicans.

BTW, up until 1960 the Dems were the party of the KKK, Jim Crow and slavery.

 

[Dragon]

Yes, over the last few years there has been an explosion of immigrants. This has led to inequality which is anathema to them.

Nordic citizens experience a high sense of autonomy and freedom, as well as high levels of social trust towards each other, which play an important role in determining life satisfaction.

They are small nation s with a sense of unity and trust in each other. It is easier to coexist and to promote a more collective philosophy.

The Nordic Exceptionalism: What Explains Why the Nordic Countries Are Constantly Among the Happiest in the World

The World Happiness Report is a partnership of Gallup, the Oxford Wellbeing Research Centre, the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network, and the WHR’s Editorial Board. The report is produced under the editorial control of the WHR Editorial Board. From 2024, the World Happiness Report...

worldhappiness.report

We too have a large % of immigrants but that is not new that has happened in waves over the last +100 years

We got a lot of Polish immigrants in the beginning of the 20th century mostly farm workers, who stayed and married locals
Then we got a lot of Hungarian refugeees in 56 and another but smaller group of czechs in 68. In the early 70s - the factories were short on labor so we got another group from the Balkans - Yogoslavia and Turkey. In 80 we got a lot of Iranian refugees too. Then another group from the Balkans when Yogoslavia broke up and lately mostly Syrian and Afghan refugees.

 

[Paul]

We too have a large % of immigrants but that is not new that has happened in waves over the last +100 years

We got a lot of Polish immigrants in the beginning of the 20th century mostly farm workers, who stayed and married locals
Then we got a lot of Hungarian refugeees in 56 and another but smaller group of czechs in 68. In the early 70s - the factories were short on labor so we got another group from the Balkans - Yogoslavia and Turkey. In 80 we got a lot of Iranian refugees too. Then another group from the Balkans when Yogoslavia broke up and lately mostly Syrian and Afghan refugees.

In America immigration has worked quite well and up until now there was plenty of unity. In my neck of the woods the number of foreign physicians and engineers is very high. The Muslim that immigrate to America have a very pro-American view. Sweden accepted a lot of refugees and this is why they have some inequality. And I can tell you that inequality in Sweden is an expletive. Intermarriage is very important for assimilation.

The question is: What can unify the left and right wing of America? They have nothing in common.

 

[SFIDC3]

Are you the guy that has trouble with idiomatic expressions? "Sticking it to the rich" is an idiomatic expression. It is often used by those that do not like class warfare.

I am a centrist and I have said that the liberals have done more for the poor than the Republicans.

BTW, up until 1960 the Dems were the party of the KKK, Jim Crow and slavery.

Are you joking? How does anyone rational take a "sticking it to the rich" comment for anything other than sticking up for the rich....You keep saying you are a centrist but then you continuously parrot Fox news talking points and sayings.....

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I feel like I'm reading a poorly programmed AI. Is this some type of Ex Machina like social experiment?

 

[UriUT]

I feel like I'm reading a poorly programmed AI. Is this some type of Ex Machina like social experiment?

It's weird right? To be so lacking in understanding of even the basics of rule of law or social contracts, and think that no one else is as smart or well informed....I can't fathom that lack of self-awareness.

 

[Dragon]

In America immigration has worked quite well and up until now there was plenty of unity. In my neck of the woods the number of foreign physicians and engineers is very high. The Muslim that immigrate to America have a very pro-American view. Sweden accepted a lot of refugees and this is why they have some inequality. And I can tell you that inequality in Sweden is an expletive. Intermarriage is very important for assimilation.

The question is: What can unify the left and right wing of America? They have nothing in common.

I disagree.. I have friends on both sides and deep down their dreams are similar. To be able to work and provide for their families in the best possible way.
But the US faces some really difficult challenges because they have ignored a lot of hard issues for a loooooong time, mostly due to the fact that everything which may have helped are considered "communist or ultra-leftwing", despite being anything like that at all

Small towns get left behind and the jobs moves to the cities. Local mom/pop shops close because people chose to drive 30 miles to a Walmart.
We had those issues here too. Thats why we have the Regional support fund. Cities with a high tax revenuen, shares some of that revenue with the small towns in their area - money which helps build infrastructure and attract new businesses.

Many mom/pop groceries has been converted into Coops where alle households in the town own a share, and the previous owners are now part owners with the rest of the town. It ensures access to groceries for all and encourages the towns inhabitants to do more of their shopping in their "own" store.

Education has been highjacked by "science deniers" and "religious Zealots" to the point where it is difficult for people to differentiate between "facts" and "oppinions"

To quote one of my favorite Authors

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” (Isaac Asimov)

So yes - you DO have some major challenges, but no - people are really not so different, but despair and a feeling of being "left behind" is way to easy to exploit by snake oil salesmen (politicians)

 

[Paul]

Are you joking? How does anyone rational take a "sticking it to the rich" comment for anything other than sticking up for the rich....You keep saying you are a centrist but then you continuously parrot Fox news talking points and sayings.....

It is an idiomatic expression and it describes what you guys talk about 24/7. It is not rocket science. I do not watch Fox; I rather watch MSNBC or CNN.

 

[Paul]

It's weird right? To be so lacking in understanding of even the basics of rule of law or social contracts, and think that no one else is as smart or well informed....I can't fathom that lack of self-awareness.

Do you have an argument. Personal attacks are not an argument.

 

[SystemShock]

I feel like I'm reading a poorly programmed AI. Is this some type of Ex Machina like social experiment?

I think it is more of a poorly crafted persona.

 

[Paul]

I disagree.. I have friends on both sides and deep down their dreams are similar. To be able to work and provide for their families in the best possible way.
But the US faces some really difficult challenges because they have ignored a lot of hard issues for a loooooong time, mostly due to the fact that everything which may have helped are considered "communist or ultra-leftwing", despite being anything like that at all

Small towns get left behind and the jobs moves to the cities. Local mom/pop shops close because people chose to drive 30 miles to a Walmart.
We had those issues here too. Thats why we have the Regional support fund. Cities with a high tax revenuen, shares some of that revenue with the small towns in their area - money which helps build infrastructure and attract new businesses.

Many mom/pop groceries has been converted into Coops where alle households in the town own a share, and the previous owners are now part owners with the rest of the town. It ensures access to groceries for all and encourages the towns inhabitants to do more of their shopping in their "own" store.

Education has been highjacked by "science deniers" and "religious Zealots" to the point where it is difficult for people to differentiate between "facts" and "oppinions"

To quote one of my favorite Authors

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” (Isaac Asimov)

So yes - you DO have some major challenges, but no - people are really not so different, but despair and a feeling of being "left behind" is way to easy to exploit by snake oil salesmen (politicians)

People complain a lot, but this is the most prosperous time in world history. It ony feels rough for prima donnas that want to keep up with the Jones.

 

[Dragon]

People complain a lot, but this is the most prosperous time in world history. It ony feels rough for prima donnas that want to keep up with the Jones.

That is where you are mistaken. A lot of people just want status quo but that is no longer possible. The world has become smaller and they no longer compete with other small town factories, but with factories in China, Korea and India half a world away and their shops and stores with Mega-businessses like Walmart and Amazon.

 

[zztop]

In America immigration has worked quite well and up until now there was plenty of unity.

Depends on who you ask. The ones that came here willingly? The ones that were forced here via slave trade? The ones that were already here and then massacred via genocide, forced relocation or disease brought from other countries?

 

[Paul]

Depends on who you ask. The ones that came here willingly? The ones that were forced here via slave trade? The ones that were already here and then massacred via genocide, forced relocation or disease brought from other countries?

You seem to be saying that unity is not achievable.
Without unity there is no USA.

 

[Dragon]

You seem to be saying that unity is not achievable.
Without unity there is no USA.

In order to achieve unity, it is necessary to achieve equality and mutual respect

That is not achieved by stereotyping and assigning negative charateristics to other ethnic groups. Until people begin to see the man/woman in front of them as equals there will be no unity.

 

[Paul]

In order to achieve unity, it is necessary to achieve equality and mutual respect

That is not achieved by stereotyping and assigning negative charateristics to other ethnic groups. Until people begin to see the man/woman in front of them as equals there will be no unity.

That is what MLK said.
The problem is quite easy to solve if we create a culture of individuality rather than collectivism.