Possible Mississippi flag change underway (2 Viewers)

[Heathen]

Miss. Senate, House both approve resolution to suspend rules, create committee to change flag

The Mississippi House and Senate both voted on Saturday to suspend rules, allowing for a vote to take place to change the current state flag.

www.wlox.com

JACKSON, Miss. (WLBT) - The Mississippi House voted on Saturday to suspend rules, allowing for a vote to take place to change the current state flag.
The vote on House Concurrent 79 was approved by a vote of 85-34. The rule must also be passed by the Senate.
HC 78 also includes the creation of a flag committee. The HCR says the new flag cannot contain the Confederate battle emblem and says the flag must include “In God We Trust.”
The goal is to get the new flag design on ballots in November. If the commission’s design doesn’t get majority approval in November, HCR 79 says the commission would design another new flag.
After the vote, the House adjourned until 2 p.m. Sunday.
The suspension of the rules is the first step to changing the state flag. If passed by the Senate with a two-thirds vote, the vote will then move toward removing the flag, which must also be passed by both the House and Senate. Governor Tate Reeves already said if the resolution on a new flag reaches his desk, he will pass it.

As a resident of Mississippi for the first 20 something-odd years of my life, I'm really happy to see this.

I'm actually very shocked Tate Reeves, who from all indication is supportive of the current flag and movement, will sign whatever decision the state hands to him on a flag change/no change. I guess he might realize he could be ending his reelection campaign early.

If it passes the Senate, the flag will essentially be including 'In God we Trust' in the logo, which pretty undeniably IMO violates the First Amendment of the Constitution.

Here's an excerpt on the ruling in 2004:

Lower courts have upheld use of motto
In Lambeth v. Board of Commissioners of Davidson County (M.D.N.C. 2004), a federal district court in North Carolina determined that the inscription “In God We Trust” on the facade of a government building does not violate the separation of church and state. The following year, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the lower court decision. In 2006 a U.S. judge in the Eastern District of California wrote in Newdow v. Congress of the United States (C.D. Cal. 2006), “The national motto is excluded from First Amendment significance because the motto ‘has no theological or ritualistic impact’ and is of a purely secular, ‘patriotic’ and ‘ceremonial character.’ ” The words In God We Trust, he said, constitute in effect “a secular national slogan.”

In God We Trust

Federal courts have consistently upheld "In God We Trust" as a national motto, which when on coins or elsewhere does not violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

www.mtsu.edu

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I believe one can easily see that the logic behind the phrase having 'no theological impact' and being 'secular' is completely outrageous. Any American knows which particular god that phrase references, and I do expect down the road for this legislation to be deemed unconstitutional. It's one of those common sense items that we know will eventually be corrected, but for now just serves as an irritant. Although it does appease those white residents who aren't outspoken about the confederate flag but don't care if it gets changed either, which seems to be a growing number of people.

Anyway, not to gripe too much. This is HUGE for my home state. Absolutely huge...Today could be a great day in Mississippi history..I'm happy it looks as if tentatively the confederate flag will be coming down.

Awaiting the Senate decision..



Here is the process to remove the State Flag:

1. MS House votes to suspend the rules- DONE
2. MS Senate votes to suspend the rules- PENDING
3. MS House votes on the bill to remove the flag. (Tomorrow at 10AM)
4. MS Senate votes on the bill to remove the flag. (TBA)
5. Governor signs the bill into law.

 

[RebSaint]

Just using the new lingo that is so popular these days.

You can pretend and argue that it is isn't a right vs left issue but you can just look at the people discussing different view points in this thread.
I am also a 'conservative' and I support the MS measure. I am talking about is the visual of the confederate flag, does it need to taken from any and all public view or is it allowed in a correct historical setting, such as the mobile historical commission seal that is put on historical homes in Mobile?

It shows what country has raised their flag over Mobile from its founding by the french to current, Murica!

Iconography? It's far from "new lingo." Yes, I'm not naive as to think it isn't a left wing or right wing issue, although what passes for "conservative" these days has changed since the age of Trump.

And I think a better distinction with Confederate iconography would be private vs. public. I think the main issue is whether or not such symbols should be displayed in public places. Fly whatever flag you'd like on your private property, but as soon as it becomes a symbol for all people, all things Confederate or associated with Jim Crow, lynching and systematic racism is up for debate and subsequent removal.

 

[Farb]

I agree. But I guess I'm not really seeing much objection over the shown, whereas the focus seems to be more on the flown.

Maybe there is not an objection. I have seen a few but I dont know if that is a prevailing thought or just a few. I guess that is what I am trying to get at.

 

[bdb13]

Just using the new lingo that is so popular these days.

You can pretend and argue that it is isn't a right vs left issue but you can just look at the people discussing different view points in this thread.
I am also a 'conservative' and I support the MS measure. I am talking about is the visual of the confederate flag, does it need to taken from any and all public view or is it allowed in a correct historical setting, such as the mobile historical commission seal that is put on historical homes in Mobile?

It shows what country has raised their flag over Mobile from its founding by the french to current, Murica!

I don't really have an objection to it being shown in a historical context because I do think it's different, but I also wouldn't fight to keep it from being removed.

 

[Devildog]

Yeah, I don't get where the objection is to having it shown in a historical context in a museum or on private property.

 

[insidejob]

Yeah, I don't get where the objection is to having it shown in a historical context in a museum or on private property.

I've seen no real objections to that. Actually, that seems to be the prevailing thought for what to do with statues, monuments, symbols of the confederacy, et al.

 

[Farb]

Iconography? It's far from "new lingo." Yes, I'm not naive as to think it isn't a left wing or right wing issue, although what passes for "conservative" these days has changed since the age of Trump.

And I think a better distinction with Confederate iconography would be private vs. public. I think the main issue is whether or not such symbols should be displayed in public places. Fly whatever flag you'd like on your private property, but as soon as it becomes a symbol for all people, all things Confederate or associated with Jim Crow, lynching and systematic racism is up for debate and subsequent removal.

No, not iconography, although I did have to look up that word. You were referring to 'traitorous flag' in my previous post so I just commented that I am going to start to putting adjectives in front of the the scary stuff. That is what I meant by 'new lingo'
That would be a interesting discussion. The evolution of the 'conservative' thought and the evolution of the 'liberal' thought since we were all blessed with the Trump. It would ultimately turn into 20 people on here telling 3 of us that we are wrong and racist but that is the way it goes .

You have me at debate. I think removing statues, flags and memorials should be discussed by the voters and let them decide as opposed to politicians and the mob making that decision of us.

 

[RebSaint]

No, not iconography, although I did have to look up that word. You were referring to 'traitorous flag' in my previous post so I just commented that I am going to start to putting adjectives in front of the the scary stuff. That is what I meant by 'new lingo'
That would be a interesting discussion. The evolution of the 'conservative' thought and the evolution of the 'liberal' thought since we were all blessed with the Trump. It would ultimately turn into 20 people on here telling 3 of us that we are wrong and racist but that is the way it goes .

I don't think these statues being "scary" is the issue--the issue, again is public symbols like flags and statues representing systematic racism. Now, where do we draw the line.? Andrew Jackson owned slaves. Should his statue be removed from Jackson Square? I don't think so, because Jackson represented a lot more than just being a slaveowner. Now, Confederate generals and monuments to the Confederacy placed during the era of Jim Crow? They probably don't belong, but I think it's a state and local issue.

Regarding more "scary things" I'll give you another example that has (mostly white conservatives) screaming about: the re-branding of historically racist advertising. Take Aunt Jemima specifically. To most people (whites) hey, some mildly-obese black women smiling. Hey! It's just syrup, right? Yeah. But to African-Americans, it's a long-held stereotype that is based on the a bunch of false myths regarding slavery. No, Mammy was not happy.

Corporations are re-branding with these historical sensitivities in mind. "Conservatives" should celebrate. It's the free market making a decision based on marketing and branding.

Regarding your last comment, what--him tweeting some white morons riding in a golf cart shouting "white power" isn't enough? Regarding the evolution of conservatism and liberalism, on the former, there's strong a case to be made that Trump is the fruition of the southern strategy pushing the envelope further and further. When all you have a is a hammer, the world looks like a bunch of nails; the R Party and conservatism is definitely not what was even when I proudly wore a GOP hat (I need another one, too because I crapped in and need it to cover it up).

Do I think Trump is racist to the core? I'm not sure. But he's doing exactly the same thing George Wallace did 50 years ago, and unfortunately, it's been the GOP's playbook for so long that they have to keep. pushing. the. envelope. Trump is the merely the symptom of I think the global rise in nationalism and populism in its ugliest forms.

You have me at debate. I think removing statues, flags and memorials should be discussed by the voters and let them decide as opposed to politicians and the mob making that decision of us.

I think what you're describing is exactly what's happening through our democratic-representative system of government. I mostly agree, here but I'll remind everyone that probably most of these statues were erected by non-democratic governments where blacks weren't even allowed to vote. I also support these issues being decided by state and local governments upon consultation of professional historians.

 

[CoolBrees]

Nobody is saying you can’t wear a confederate shirt or go fishing in a stars and bars bass boat. I might think it is ridiculous, but you probably think a lot of the stuff I do is ridiculous too.

flying it’s symbol in any fashion in a public place is tacit approval. It has no business in public places, museums excluded.

AFTR- I cant speak for anyone else but I call confederate soldiers losers and traitors because that is what they are to me. I don’t have any social media accounts at all other than this and the main board. My ancestors had to leave their homes and go south to fight against those traitors. I see that flag the same way I see the Nazi flag- an enemy combatant that tried to kill my family. Fortunately for my kin, we were good soldiers and gave way more than we got or i wouldn’t have existed.

Those images are offensive to me, though not in the same galaxy as they must be to Black Americans. That flag represents a national enemy to me.

It comes down to perspective. From the stories told by my grandparents to the educational system in Colorado that taught me the Civil War. Its totally different than the War of Northern Agression that I learned about when From co-workers in Knoxville, Tennessee during the Obama Administration.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Do you get points somewhere for always using 'traitor, loser or some other adjective when you type confederate? I know you all think it angers folks but it really just makes you look like you get your thoughts from facebook or something. Same question for 'say it louder for those in the back'. Very cultish.
Anyway, the state flag was adopted in 1895 and the state of Alabama was in the confederacy from 1861 to 1865, so the current state flag is not a historically accurate depiction.

It just seems to me that the fear the of the confederate flag as a historical symbol when even applied in an historical setting, has been lost and the only symbolism remaining for the flag is slavery, despite the historical context.

If you want to provide the historical context necessary to justify the flying of a flag that represents those who no longer wished to be a part of this country over their desire to own slaves, I am all ears.

 

[Farb]

If you want to provide the historical context necessary to justify the flying of a flag that represents those who no longer wished to be a part of this country over their desire to own slaves, I am all ears.

Flying or shown?

 

[Farb]

I don't think these statues being "scary" is the issue--the issue, again is public symbols like flags and statues representing systematic racism. Now, where do we draw the line.? Andrew Jackson owned slaves. Should his statue be removed from Jackson Square? I don't think so, because Jackson represented a lot more than just being a slaveowner. Now, Confederate generals and monuments to the Confederacy placed during the era of Jim Crow? They probably don't belong, but I think it's a state and local issue.

Regarding more "scary things" I'll give you another example that has (mostly white conservatives) screaming about: the re-branding of historically racist advertising. Take Aunt Jemima specifically. To most people (whites) hey, some mildly-obese black women smiling. Hey! It's just syrup, right? Yeah. But to African-Americans, it's a long-held stereotype that is based on the a bunch of false myths regarding slavery. No, Mammy was not happy.

Corporations are re-branding with these historical sensitivities in mind. "Conservatives" should celebrate. It's the free market making a decision based on marketing and branding.

Regarding your last comment, what--him tweeting some white morons riding in a golf cart shouting "white power" isn't enough? Regarding the evolution of conservatism and liberalism, on the former, there's strong a case to be made that Trump is the fruition of the southern strategy pushing the envelope further and further. When all you have a is a hammer, the world looks like a bunch of nails; the R Party and conservatism is definitely not what was even when I proudly wore a GOP hat (I need another one, too because I crapped in and need it to cover it up).

Do I think Trump is racist to the core? I'm not sure. But he's doing exactly the same thing George Wallace did 50 years ago, and unfortunately, it's been the GOP's playbook for so long that they have to keep. pushing. the. envelope. Trump is the merely the symptom of I think the global rise in nationalism and populism in its ugliest forms.




I think what you're describing is exactly what's happening through our democratic-representative system of government. I mostly agree, here but I'll remind everyone that probably most of these statues were erected by non-democratic governments where blacks weren't even allowed to vote. I also support these issues being decided by state and local governments upon consultation of professional historians.

I agree with most here, except a few points.
I honestly don't know any 'white conservatives' or conservatives for that matter, that really care about re branding syrup or pancake batter. Many might think it is a little silly but it is a move by the corporations and their call. The justification can be actual heartfelt remorse or virtue signaling. I think we all can guess the majority of the actions taken by big corporations and what they fall under.

I don't agree that the mob pulling down a statue of a catholic saint, abolitionist war hero or George Washington, just for example, is a democratic-representative process. And the fact that we are expected to look the other way because of the group that is doing it rubs a lot of conservatives (white, black, brown and yellow) the wrong way.

I also agree Trump is a symptom of a rise of nationalism but I don't think you can lay that solely on the Grand Ole Party (who I am not a fan of). If that was the case, why the sudden resurgence of nationalism throughout the world at about the same time or even before Trump was running. I think it has more to do with the universal push back from the over reaching left around western civilization than solely an American political party.

 

[insidejob]

I also agree Trump is a symptom of a rise of nationalism but I don't think you can lay that solely on the Grand Ole Party (who I am not a fan of). If that was the case, why the sudden resurgence of nationalism throughout the world at about the same time or even before Trump was running. I think it has more to do with the universal push back from the over reaching left around western civilization than solely an American political party.

I think we can lay the majority of nationalism at Trump's feet worldwide since when he took office we were still considered "The Leader of the Free World" or some stupid crap like that. Other countries have followed America's lead on things like this for quite some time now. Only since Trump has basically turned us into a laughing stock instead of a leader by now would you be able to say that he had nothing to do with it. The same GOP that bows down before that moron are the same ones who called him "deranged, delusional, unfit, an idiot, a criminal, etc., etc." so, yeah, I'd say the GOP and Trump have led the way on this worldwide authoritarian acceptance/push towards it.

 

[RebSaint]

I agree with most here, except a few points.
I honestly don't know any 'white conservatives' or conservatives for that matter, that really care about re branding syrup or pancake batter. Many might think it is a little silly but it is a move by the corporations and their call. The justification can be actual heartfelt remorse or virtue signaling. I think we all can guess the majority of the actions taken by big corporations and what they fall under.

I don't agree that the mob pulling down a statue of a catholic saint, abolitionist war hero or George Washington, just for example, is a democratic-representative process. And the fact that we are expected to look the other way because of the group that is doing it rubs a lot of conservatives (white, black, brown and yellow) the wrong way.

I also agree Trump is a symptom of a rise of nationalism but I don't think you can lay that solely on the Grand Ole Party (who I am not a fan of). If that was the case, why the sudden resurgence of nationalism throughout the world at about the same time or even before Trump was running. I think it has more to do with the universal push back from the over reaching left around western civilization than solely an American political party.

Albeit anecdotal, but we both have lots the same FB friends. Look what a few of them daily post. These folks aren't what I would call "liberal." And nowhere in my post did I support or condone vandalism or destruction of public property. And let's not conflate legitimate efforts to legally remove these symbols and monuments to a bunch of wacko anarchists.

We disagree, re: the origins of modern global populism (I think it has a lot do with income disparity rather than left wing politics) I don't think there's any one 'cause' but I'm convinced its the effects of globalization and dwindling social mobility has a lot to do with it. Populists couldn't fuel the culture wars without social and economic disruption and angst.

 

[insidejob]

This man's tweet on the rebel flag sums it up perfectly:

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Flying or shown?

Used in a manner in which this discussion is predicated on. For Mississippi, it was use of the flag within their state flag. For Mobile, it is the flag being flown by the government on city property and how would it be replaced to maintain the nickname "City of Six Flags."

 

[insidejob]

"City of Six Flags."

Why is this dumb nickname so important to them in the first place? I'd bet it's because the rebel flag is one of them.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I also agree Trump is a symptom of a rise of nationalism but I don't think you can lay that solely on the Grand Ole Party (who I am not a fan of).

Nationalism does not equate to racism. One can have a desire to push their own national interest over another nation's without being racist. What we have seen in the US and abroad has been racism dressed up in the disguise of nationalism. In the US, we have seen the rise of racism and nationalism has had little to do with it. And that same racism hidden behind nationalism has taken over conservatism.
What passes as conservatism today is unrecognizable compared to what conservatism in the 70's and 80's. Any believer in true conservatism would be actively supporting the removal of trump and every government official that enables him.

 

[Farb]

Albeit anecdotal, but we both have lots the same FB friends. Look what a few of them daily post. These folks aren't what I would call "liberal." And nowhere in my post did I support or condone vandalism or destruction of public property. And let's not conflate legitimate efforts to legally remove these symbols and monuments to a bunch of wacko anarchists.

We disagree, re: the origins of modern global populism (I think it has a lot do with income disparity rather than left wing politics) I don't think there's any one 'cause' but I'm convinced its the effects of globalization and dwindling social mobility has a lot to do with it. Populists couldn't fuel the culture wars without social and economic disruption and angst.

I gotcha. About some of our mutal FB friends, I wouldn't call them conservative either. Right, absolutely. I have some left friends too. I have many many more conservative and liberal friends. Maybe the issue is each side paints the other with a broad brush. Conservative does not mean right or right wing just as liberal doesn't mean left or left wing. There is a large and identifiable difference between the two on each side; however the perception from the other side is narrowing.