Political/Social movements and groups (1 Viewer)

[DaveXA]

I'm debating how to do this, but as discussed in the QAnon thread, I'd like to discuss the various groups and movements and the role they're playing in the political and social arenas. They're apparently driving (or so it seems) the trajectory of politics today. I'm not sure if we should do a repository of all groups here or a separate thread for each group.

Certainly some groups will warrant a lot of discussion while other maybe a cursory amount. I think there are a few things I'd like to cover. And listed below, feel free to suggest; add, combine or delete from this list:

- How/why group started
- Early mission
- Current mission
- Relevance today
- Where is it heading?
- Did it fail or achieve its goals?

I'm also listing the groups in no particular order:

- BLM
- Antifa
- Proud Boys
- KkK
- Boogaloo (sp?)
- QAnon
- Nation of Islam
- Black Panthers
- Zionists
- Not sure what would be a group worth discussing for Arab/Islam perspective, Hezbollah, ISIS or something else?

This isn't a thread to attack these groups. This is a thread to discuss what they are, why they came into existence and where they seem to be headed going forward. It might be too broad for a single thread though. I don't know, just wanting to kickstart a discussion that I think can be productive.

 

[LA - L.A.]

@Saint by the Bay -

When you come I have a 1br mother-in law suite with a separate entrance that is all yours. Full sized kitchen and everything.

I have extended the offer to a few folks but really that goes for anyone on this board. And I mean anyone. We are human by birth and Saints Fans by choice and that alone makes you good in my book.

You had a choice to be a Saints' fan? I was force fed the Saints in the womb.

 

[CoolBrees]

Not to completely derail the topic but yes, I had a choice. To be honest the fan base is what drew (pun intended) me in.

I was a military kid so I had no hometown allegiance. I “played” LB in the 80’s so Ricky Jackson was my favorite player. I hated Joe Montana and the 49er’s. Went to Purdue in the late 90’s when a smallish kid from Texas came to play for Joe Tiller. When the Saints signed him it solidified the Saints as my team. You guys made me a lifer though.

 

[DaveXA]

Not to completely derail the topic but yes, I had a choice. To be honest the fan base is what drew (pun intended) me in.

I was a military kid so I had no hometown allegiance. I “played” LB in the 80’s so Ricky Jackson was my favorite player. I hated Joe Montana and the 49er’s. Went to Purdue in the late 90’s when a smallish kid from Texas came to play for Joe Tiller. When the Saints signed him it solidified the Saints as my team. You guys made me a lifer though.

Who dat!

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

I am only doing this because on of my favorite posters requested this. I will have to clean my self and my search engine when I am done. I have a lot of experience with the Proud Boys as I have been in the streets with them since 2018. Just in the other side of the street. In short, they are what’s wrong with America.

The Proud Boys were founded as a chauvinist drinking club by Gavin McGinnis. He is best known as the co-founder of Vice magazine and Vice online. He was forcibly removed from their Board when his disdain for women and minorities became mainstream knowledge. He was born in England and raised in Canada, so his American legion schtick is ironic to say the least. Their name comes from the Aladdin movie song Proud of your Boy believe it or not.

McGinnis used his abilities as a promoter and writer and his access to the airwaves to spin nothing stories in a manner than low intelligence individuals could not see the nuance and how it didn’t match reality. Or the difference between anecdote and actual statistics.

Slowly at first his group gained notoriety as just a drinking club for dudes. Then some members started causing problems at gay parades, etc. McGinnis always disavowed their actions tacitly so his minions knew he was actually approving.

It wasn’t until he was caught on tape at a meeting discussing violence and how to get away with it that they were outed as more than just a drinking club. McGinnis distanced himself from the group due to disagreements within the group in how to deal with their new found fame. He wanted to lie low and continue to try to work under the guise of a club. Then Unite the Right happened and there was no going back so McGinnis officially “quit” though that is still up for debate.

The other leaders- most notably a mental midget named Enrique Tario took over the group and made no bones about their ideals. Western chauvinism they called it. Another leader is a caveman named Kyle Chapman formed/ organized the militant arm of the Proud Boys, more on them in a moment. Recently they have fought over the path of their group. Chapman wants a whites only neofascist org while Tarrio wants to stick with the “just have to be a dude and not masterbate more than once a month rule. Yeah. Judging by recent events, Chapman is winning this argument.

They have a few subgroups - namely FOAK (Fraternal order of Alt Knights) started by the cro-magnon Chapman. These are the clowns that really like to kick up dust. They are the ones that beat up people in street fights where they outnumber the victim like 5:1.

The other is Patriot Prayer, a group that portends to be just Pro-Trump and anti left but they always seem to be together. Their leader is Joey Gibson. He is tiny in stature and small in intellect. But really really small in height.

Their funding comes from their online presence and from quiet donors to fuel their activism. One of the more famous persons to support them financially is our Sec of Education Betsy DeVoss. She maintains she didn’t know who she was giving support to but I will let you decide if you believe her.

Their main media mouthpiece is a piece himself - Andy Ngo. Mr Ngo writes officially for the Post Millenial, a Canadian Far right mag with close ties to the Proud Boys. He is famous for getting “milkshaked” here in Portland. That is where someone throws a “milkshake” but instead of ice cream, it’s filled with Portland cement. Sounds horrible doesn’t it. Only problem is it didn’t happen. He staged the whole thing and was caught on video prepping the injury to look like it had happened. Since then he has continually released edited videos and fake news. In short he sucks.

They are listed by every major extremist watch group as a threat to the US and it’s citizens. They are lowlifes that cosplay tough guys. But they are increasingly dangerous and with the “president” giving them credence to “stand down and stand by” they will only garner more support and will more than likely move from alt right meatheads to full on neofascist militants over the Biden presidency.


I need a shower now.

I Wonder what to make of the similarities of toxic group origin stories
Proud boys as a drinking club, incels as gamer boi fans, 4chan as trolls
All seem to start as a ‘you just can’t take a joke’ fringey guys and then morphed fairly quickly

 

[SystemShock]

Most support Israel more than Zionism though.

Same difference.

 

[DaveXA]

Same difference.

Not it's clearly not. Zionists aren't even a substantial majority in Israel.

 

[CoolBrees]

@GMRfellowtraveller -

that is Total McGinnis and Proud Boy modus operendi. The whole “can’t take a joke, huh cuck” thing. It’s how one says reprehensible things and can skirt responsibility. The Proud Boys are based on this premise. From the ok symbol being about white supremacy to jokingly threatening people’s lives, its how they operate. And then when someone follows through on their nonsense (see Unite the Right murder) they say “we didn’t tell them to do that. We are just kidding and some crazy people take it too far.” And people believe them unfortunately.

 

[LA - L.A.]

@GMRfellowtraveller -

that is Total McGinnis and Proud Boy modus operendi. The whole “can’t take a joke, huh cuck” thing. It’s how one says reprehensible things and can skirt responsibility. The Proud Boys are based on this premise. From the ok symbol being about white supremacy to jokingly threatening people’s lives, its how they operate. And then when someone follows through on their nonsense (see Unite the Right murder) they say “we didn’t tell them to do that. We are just kidding and some crazy people take it too far.” And people believe them unfortunately.

People can be both joking and sincere at the same time. It's the typical behavior of jerks, bullies, and sociopaths. Joking while tormenting and abusing others is very much a part of the torment and abuse.

 

[SystemShock]

Not it's clearly not. Zionists aren't even a substantial majority in Israel.

If you go by the definition, an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel, it is.

 

[DaveXA]

If you go by the definition, an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel, it is.

No, that's not the currently understood definition of Zionism. There are more Jews who live outside Israel than in the country. Many, if not most are not Zionists. Also, Israel itself isn't entirely Jewish. Many Muslims (20%) and a smaller number of Christians live in Israel. Not all of Israel are Zionists. There's a political party, I'm not recalling which one, who don't consider themselves Zionists. If anything, these days, there are a lot of people who support a 2 state solution. They are typically not considered Zionists. Zionists that I'm familiar with do not support a 2 state solution.

You can support the country of Israel and not be a Zionist. I tend to think a 2 state solution is the best chance of achieving peace even though I'm not necessarily optimistic it would last. I do think Jews should have a sovereign land at minimum. There will always be disagreements about what that means and how to get there, but it is what it is.

In any case for purposes of this discussion, I don't consider Zionism to be a domestic policy group.

 

[SystemShock]

No, that's not the currently understood definition of Zionism.

And what is it that is currently understood as Zionism?

I'll venture to say, Jewish people living in Israel are very much pro-Israeli State, and very sure most of those Arabs (if not all) would prefer there not be a Jewish State.

In any case for purposes of this discussion, I don't consider Zionism to be a domestic policy group.

Someone should tell Sheldon Adelson.

 

[DaveXA]

And what is it that is currently understood as Zionism?

I'll venture to say, Jewish people living in Israel are very much pro-Israeli State, and very sure most of those Arabs (if not all) would prefer there not be a Jewish State.


Someone should tell Sheldon Adelson.

Simply stated, a Zionist is a person who accepts the idea that the State of Israel doesn’t belong only to its citizens, but to the entire Jewish people.

Many Jews do not necessarily subscribe to that view. They often believe Israel as a state should continue to exist and maintain sovereignty, but that doesn't make a person a Zionist. Believing that the State only belongs to the Jewish people is what makes them a Zionist. I know more than a few Jewish people and I've never once heard any of them call themselves Zionists. I have heard a few talk negatively about Zionists though. They're not interested in returning to Israel, although they does support the states continued existence.

Of course the definition has changed over the years and some use Zionism as a derogatory term while others wear it as a badge of honor. Depends on who you talk to.

 

[SystemShock]

Simply stated, a Zionist is a person who accepts the idea that the State of Israel doesn’t belong only to its citizens, but to the entire Jewish people.

Many Jews do not necessarily subscribe to that view. They often believe Israel as a state should continue to exist and maintain sovereignty, but that doesn't make a person a Zionist. Believing that the State only belongs to the Jewish people is what makes them a Zionist. I know more than a few Jewish people and I've never once heard any of them call themselves Zionists. I have heard a few talk negatively about Zionists though. They're not interested in returning to Israel, although they does support the states continued existence.

Of course the definition has changed over the years and some use Zionism as a derogatory term while others wear it as a badge of honor. Depends on who you talk to.

And where from did you get that current understanding of the word "Zionism"? From a few Jewish people you know?

Edit: and on related news...

Pompeo calls for new labeling of products from West Bank, directs action to combat boycotts of Israel

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo issued two significant statements regarding U.S. policies on Israel and the Palestinian territories Thursday, revealing a stronger stance behind Israel’s presence in the West Bank.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Yggdrasill]

@SystemShock

 

[SystemShock]

@SystemShock

Can't believe it's already been 9 years since we lost the Hitchslap.

 

[J-DONK]

I Wonder what to make of the similarities of toxic group origin stories
Proud boys as a drinking club, incels as gamer boi fans, 4chan as trolls
All seem to start as a ‘you just can’t take a joke’ fringey guys and then morphed fairly quickly

I assume the gamer, and 4chan overlap a lot. That's all Steven Bannon, who is familiar with that crowd from investing in wow gold farmers back in the day.(Yes, that really happened.)

P.S. Antifa isn't even an org really from what I can tell. There are some people in usually liberal communities that identify and organize as Antifa. As far as I know it has no central structure, or way to gain membership.

 

[Eeyore]

Israeli Jewish Antifa hacks KKK website, doxxes members

The hackers identified themselves as an anti-fascist collective by the name Hayalim Almonim - Hebrew for Anonymous Soldiers, in an exclusive statement to The Jerusalem Post,

m.jpost.com

 

[Saintman2884]

No, that's not the currently understood definition of Zionism. There are more Jews who live outside Israel than in the country. Many, if not most are not Zionists. Also, Israel itself isn't entirely Jewish. Many Muslims (20%) and a smaller number of Christians live in Israel. Not all of Israel are Zionists. There's a political party, I'm not recalling which one, who don't consider themselves Zionists. If anything, these days, there are a lot of people who support a 2 state solution. They are typically not considered Zionists. Zionists that I'm familiar with do not support a 2 state solution.

You can support the country of Israel and not be a Zionist. I tend to think a 2 state solution is the best chance of achieving peace even though I'm not necessarily optimistic it would last. I do think Jews should have a sovereign land at minimum. There will always be disagreements about what that means and how to get there, but it is what it is.

In any case for purposes of this discussion, I don't consider Zionism to be a domestic policy group.

Zionism began as an international left-leaning ethnic nationalist advocacy group begun by Austrian Jewish reporter/journalist Theodor Hertzl who wrote the Jewish State, in 1898, after covering the Dreyfus Affair and coming to the conclusion that European societies, governments, popular sentiment would ever truly accept or welcome Jewish communities into their respective countries after centuries of religious and political persecution, pogroms, slanderous lies like Blood labels, being forced and quarantined into ghettos all over Europe until 18th century, being told your religion is "a gutter religion", satanic, and your people are perpetually damned for killing Christ(dioxide). Then there's the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious forgery written by an ex-Russian Orthodox priest in Paris in 1890's trying to defend and justify Czarist Russia's medieval, inhumane antisemitic policies.
Even in mid-late 19th centuries, Jews in Russia, Eastern European countries, in Germany Jews were forbidden to enter major universities, trade schools, prevented from voting, owning property.