Political Lies (1 Viewer)

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MT15

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Maybe we should keep track of particularly egregious lies about policy and government. I know I see Daniel Dale still doing good work fact checking what politicians say.

Note: I don’t see this as a thread for nit-picking. So and so said there were 13 violations and there were only 11, for example. Rather the lies that completely misrepresent some policy, or law.

I‘ll start with this one I just saw:

 

UncleTrvlingJim

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It's interesting to see the right jump on and cling to a lie told by Lieu. Question is, what is the overall impact of the lie that Lieu told? Not quite as significant as the lies told over and over again by trump and many, many other republicans that actually cost people their lives. Not only that, trump and the republican lies cost capitol police their lives and almost cost us our democracy. But yes, Lieu lied. Only 30,532 more lies and 550K and counting more deaths to go until Lieu's lie has the same impact that the lies told by trump and republicans had on this country.
This is definitely whataboutism. This isn't about Republicans, they're already a lost cause, their failure to stand up to Trump basically showed that the party is lost. At this point it's whether the Democratic party is salvageable. They seem to be better than the Republicans, but that shouldn't give them a free pass on everything.

At some point we need to decide what we're willing to give up for specific perceived policy goals. If you're willing to give up basic decency and truth to achieve policy goals, then you're a fundamentalist.

I'm not saying Lieu's lie is a definitive turning point down a dark path or anything like that. But it was a lie, and you should hold your own side to the highest standard possible.
 

J-DONK

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I think even if enough of Founding Fathers had some inkling of maybe the potential problems older aged politicians at risk of senility issues related posed to their effectiveness, if many of these same politicians had a relatively successful, decisive resumes as Senators or Reps, who cares if their 75 or even 80, perhaps they deserve the benefit of the doubt until it becomes too glaringly obvious the physical, mental and emotional strains of their jobs become too much.
Feinstein is 87. The oldest congressmen to ever serve is a list full of recent entries. They stay in the job far to long, coasting on name recognition for decades. Feinstein bristled at the idea of stepping down, and she probably couldn't tell you the date. I truly believe if the founding fathers saw a bunch of congressmen in their mid to late 80's walking around with serious cognitive decline they would have been appalled.
 

Saintman2884

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This is definitely whataboutism. This isn't about Republicans, they're already a lost cause, their failure to stand up to Trump basically showed that the party is lost. At this point it's whether the Democratic party is salvageable. They seem to be better than the Republicans, but that shouldn't give them a free pass on everything.

At some point we need to decide what we're willing to give up for specific perceived policy goals. If you're willing to give up basic decency and truth to achieve policy goals, then you're a fundamentalist.

I'm not saying Lieu's lie is a definitive turning point down a dark path or anything like that. But it was a lie, and you should hold your own side to the highest standard possible.
Regarding your second stanza, Machiavelli would say that's the basic, unvarnished cold-hearted truth of how "power politics" operates regardless of whether more supposed or alleged ethical/moral-minded politicians like to believe it is or what it could be, idealistically. Realpolitik can be a very effective, sharp political philosophy to utilize if done properly and intelligently but it won't win you a lot of friends, and you'll develop a highly-partisan reputation as a disreputable, shady, ominous policy maker who mostly gets things done but often in a very, heavy-handed God forbid nasty way.

I think gradually since end of WWII, American politics has taken on a increasingly "power politics" prose but its been nuanced, massaged, or cleverly phrased into PR-saavy terms, slogans for policies like the New Frontier, the War on Poverty/LBJ's Great Society social welfare programs, Nixon's Vietnamization, beginning the War on Drugs, even MAGA, that it distracts most Americans from the realization of the heavy-handed, manipulation, wire-tapping or FBI surveillance or hardball tactics administrations from both parties used to pass their bills and win.

JFK, LBJ to a lesser extent and Carter tried to paint themselves and their party's platform in opposition to GOP as idealistic, energetic, youthful and containing a higher moral aesthetic sense to it when they were privately and discreetly just as corrupt, immoral and decadent as their rivals, particularly both JFK and RFK. Carter's presidential image that he displayed wasnt too far from his own personal life, and values and he was a choir boy compared to his predecessors, except for perhaps Ford. Carter was just ineffective overall and managed to make a lot of foreign/domestic problems he inherited worse and the Iranian hostage crisis and the badly-organized, hastily construed Operation Eagle Claw boondoggle didnt help. Carter likely gets re-elected if the Iranian hostage crisis doesn't occur or he secures the release of those American hostages sooner than January 1981 or before the 1980 Presidential election previous November.

There's always been a element of play-acting or posing in how we, as Americans, perceive how it'd be nice to discuss and argue legislation in a productive, bipartisan manner(utilitarian) vs. Bipartisanship is an option but which side will.argue who won the most after the bills become laws and if you're willing to sacrifice ethics, some norms of decency, honesty to achieve your goals, then its an option worth considering (Machiavellian power politics, or Realpolitik).

Politics, it's been said, is the art of possible. That's a very idealistic, hopeful interpretation but its even truer that politics is also the art of who can win the most of what he/she/they strive for to the greatest extent and not be afraid or unwilling to bend or openly/covertly break the rules in the pursuit. I don't think a vast majority of Americans have truly come to appreciate or understand how much of DC Capitol Hill politics operates according to the latter until recently and how some of them were very naive to assume in the past the process worked out maybe a bit differently.
 

Saintamaniac

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This is definitely whataboutism. This isn't about Republicans, they're already a lost cause, their failure to stand up to Trump basically showed that the party is lost. At this point it's whether the Democratic party is salvageable. They seem to be better than the Republicans, but that shouldn't give them a free pass on everything.

At some point we need to decide what we're willing to give up for specific perceived policy goals. If you're willing to give up basic decency and truth to achieve policy goals, then you're a fundamentalist.

I'm not saying Lieu's lie is a definitive turning point down a dark path or anything like that. But it was a lie, and you should hold your own side to the highest standard possible.
You can call it whataboutism. I don't necessarily agree that it is. I'm looking it at from an overall impact to the country. Let's face it. Pretty much all politicians lie to some degree. It's almost an accepted fact like businesses factoring in theft and loss into their profit equation. Take a look at some of the more famous "lies" told by politicians:

  • “Read my Lips: no new taxes.” -HW Bush (Result) ~ taxes were raised to help reduce the national budget deficit. No one died and while it was what was best for the country, his party that had just spent the last 8 years spending more more than the country had ever spent before held it against him. Once again, Republicans spent like no tomorrow then complained about paying for it. No one died as a result of Bush's failure to keep his promise. I wouldn't even call it a lie per se.
  • “I did not have sexual relations with that women” -Clinton (Result) ~ Clinton was impeached for lying under oath. He was not convicted by the Senate. He finished his second term presiding over one of our strongest economies and economic growth periods. No one died as a result of Clinton lying about his affair.
  • “Sadam has WMDs & Mission Accomplished -W (Result) ~ (Result) ~ Bush's lie took us to war against Iraq resulting in the deaths of thousands of US service members as well as Iraqis.
  • “If you like your Doctor you can keep them” - Obama (Result) ~ Some people weren't able to keep their doctors. I don't know if anyone actually died as a result of not being able to keep their doctor. If I had to guess, I'd say that no one did.
My point is not to say "well they do it too." My point is to say that there are degrees of impact that certain lies have had on us and on the country. A lie about getting a blow job didn't kill anyone. A lie about no new taxes didn't kill anyone. Going to war on a lie and lying 30K+ times including about foreign interference in our elections, our national security and a pandemic virus killed people. Lying about losing an election and encouraging followers to try to overthrow the government killed people.

There may be a point down the line when we can get back to truly holding ALL politicians accountable for their lies. That time is not now; not when one party is openly and unabashedly seeking to overthrow our system of government thru lies. Democrats would be damn fools, as they have been in the past, to try to take the high road. I don't give a damn what Lieu lied about. It doesn't compare to the lies being told by Republicans both federal and local.
 

Saintman2884

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You can call it whataboutism. I don't necessarily agree that it is. I'm looking it at from an overall impact to the country. Let's face it. Pretty much all politicians lie to some degree. It's almost an accepted fact like businesses factoring in theft and loss into their profit equation. Take a look at some of the more famous "lies" told by politicians:

  • “Read my Lips: no new taxes.” -HW Bush (Result) ~ taxes were raised to help reduce the national budget deficit. No one died and while it was what was best for the country, his party that had just spent the last 8 years spending more more than the country had ever spent before held it against him. Once again, Republicans spent like no tomorrow then complained about paying for it. No one died as a result of Bush's failure to keep his promise. I wouldn't even call it a lie per se.
  • “I did not have sexual relations with that women” -Clinton (Result) ~ Clinton was impeached for lying under oath. He was not convicted by the Senate. He finished his second term presiding over one of our strongest economies and economic growth periods. No one died as a result of Clinton lying about his affair.
  • “Sadam has WMDs & Mission Accomplished -W (Result) ~ (Result) ~ Bush's lie took us to war against Iraq resulting in the deaths of thousands of US service members as well as Iraqis.
  • “If you like your Doctor you can keep them” - Obama (Result) ~ Some people weren't able to keep their doctors. I don't know if anyone actually died as a result of not being able to keep their doctor. If I had to guess, I'd say that no one did.
My point is not to say "well they do it too." My point is to say that there are degrees of impact that certain lies have had on us and on the country. A lie about getting a blow job didn't kill anyone. A lie about no new taxes didn't kill anyone. Going to war on a lie and lying 30K+ times including about foreign interference in our elections, our national security and a pandemic virus killed people. Lying about losing an election and encouraging followers to try to overthrow the government killed people.

There may be a point down the line when we can get back to truly holding ALL politicians accountable for their lies. That time is not now; not when one party is openly and unabashedly seeking to overthrow our system of government thru lies. Democrats would be damn fools, as they have been in the past, to try to take the high road. I don't give a damn what Lieu lied about. It doesn't compare to the lies being told by Republicans both federal and local.
LBJ lied or at the very least mislead the American public about the true, covert nature of the Gulf of Tonkin incident where supposedly two North Vietnamese torpedo boats fired on two US warships and used that as a justification for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution that he himself lied about and downplayed the possibility of US armed troops being sent to South Vietnam to voters during the 1964 Presidential election. He even allowed a infamous 1964 "Daisy" ad which character assassinated Barry Goldwater. Johnson inherited a limited conflict begun by Eisenhower and Kennedy and ignoring JFK's skepticism about whether Vietnam was a winnable war worth sacrificing American lives for, he assumed Vietnam would be solved just like he had achieved with so many of his domestic policies. He also believed he knew how to run a protracted, guerrilla war in Southeast Asia better then 4-star generals did.

Only problem is, LBJ essentially lied or deliberately downplayed any suggestions asked to him during his 1964 presidential run about what his future plans for Vietnam were. In more then a few campaign speeches, he told his supporters he didnt believe in sending US troops to die in needlessly, unwinnable wars when LBJ had already made the preliminary decision to escalate the conflict once he'd been elected.

That foreign policy decision led to one of the most tense, divisive conflicts and periods in American history. A conflict that led to 58,000 American soldiers dying, and hundreds of thousands more physically, mentally and emotionally scarred, disabled, suffering from Agent Orange poisoning and their children being born with birth defects, physical deformities. So, lets have some perspective in mind that their is another US president other then Bush who deliberately or carelessly lied or mislead US public or manipulated public opinion that lead to thousands of soldiers dying in a quagmire the former French premier, Charles de Gaulle, warned JFK not to get militarily engaged in otherwise they'd end up in a similar situation like they did at Diem Bein Phu in 1954.

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much all your points and sentiments expressed in your above-response post.
 
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MT15

MT15

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So evidentIy Bill Barr told some whoppers last year when he and other Trump lackeys said that the biggest threat to American election security was China, not Russia. This report dropped yesterday, and was mostly prepared by the Trump ODNI, and just finished up. To nobody’s surprise, Russia was the one with the most interference. They fed stories meant to discredit Biden directly to Trump campaign people and Trump administration members. Oh, members of the press and some US Congress members as well were conduits for Russian propaganda. A Russian intelligence operative (Kilimnik-sp?) helped some Trump allies film a documentary about Biden “corruption” and it was aired on OAN.

Here is a link to the report in this tweet:


This should be a huge scandal. Everyone who bought into the “Joe Biden is corrupt” narrative was pushing Russian propaganda, apparently. It was pushed pretty hard, and by some people who knew better.
 
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MT15

MT15

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Key Judgments:

143FE203-7573-48C6-9D92-A82DECF78EA4.jpeg

83F8870C-A265-455B-9048-36A4FEFA1851.jpeg
 

SaintForLife

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So evidentIy Bill Barr told some whoppers last year when he and other Trump lackeys said that the biggest threat to American election security was China, not Russia. This report dropped yesterday, and was mostly prepared by the Trump ODNI, and just finished up. To nobody’s surprise, Russia was the one with the most interference. They fed stories meant to discredit Biden directly to Trump campaign people and Trump administration members. Oh, members of the press and some US Congress members as well were conduits for Russian propaganda. A Russian intelligence operative (Kilimnik-sp?) helped some Trump allies film a documentary about Biden “corruption” and it was aired on OAN.

Here is a link to the report in this tweet:


This should be a huge scandal. Everyone who bought into the “Joe Biden is corrupt” narrative was pushing Russian propaganda, apparently. It was pushed pretty hard, and by some people who knew better.
We do know that Hunter Biden is under investigation by the FBI and thay report doesn't say anything about Hunter's laptop.
 
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MT15

MT15

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Nobody said anything about Hunter, except for you. This report lays it all out, how Kilimnik (who I believe is now a wanted man) is a Russian intelligence operative, how he helped produce a propaganda film about Joe Biden which was aired by OAN, how certain members of Congress and media parroted the Russian propaganda.

Everyone who pushed the “Joe Biden is corrupt” narrative was acting in furtherance of Putin’s campaign to influence American politics and society. We need, as a society, to come to terms with this. Putin does not have benign intent for us and we need Republicans to quit aiding him in his efforts.

I watched Bill Barr say in an interview that China posed the main threat to the 2020 presidential election. Asked why he thinks that, he said because he had seen the intelligence. Now the intelligence has come out, and we find out that he was just boldly lying about that. He wasn’t the only Trump administration official to lie in this way in an attempt to downplay what Russia has been doing.

Why would this report lie? What would be the purpose of it? There isn’t any incentive for this report to tell lies. But there is a big incentive for Trump supporters, in the media and in government, to lie about what Russia is doing. Just use common sense here.
 

SystemShock

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Why did most of the media who highlighted this report leave out the part about Iran trying to hurt Trump?
I don't know who "most of the media" are, but Iran is a declared enemy, whereas the White House actively defended Putin or ignored him, while continuously trying to shift the blame towards China. And that's the real story here, the reluctance of the White House to act against a threat to our elections while giving the attacker favorable status.

It's interesting how Democrats and the media now believe everything from the intelligence community despite their history of lies and deception.
I don't know about Democrats or the media, but the intelligence community doesn't usually make public declarations or conducts press conferences. Their reports (just like the report being discussed) aren't meant for public consumption, but alert the government of threats.

It should be very obvious why the intelligence community doesn't disclose how they get their information.

We do know that Hunter Biden is under investigation by the FBI and thay report doesn't say anything about Hunter's laptop.
Was Hunter Biden a foreign threat to the 2020 U.S. federal elections? Why would Hunter Biden's laptop be mentioned in such a report?
 
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wardorican

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So, this may not be the type of political lie MT15 is looking for, but this one is a pretty big local scandal.

 

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