Impeachment Round Two (1 Viewer)

[Yggdrasill]

I am in the camp that Trump must -not should- be impeached. If not this President, for this behavior, then what bar would have to be cleared to merit impeachment?

Impeachment not only sends a signal to the country and the world that fomenting a coup is unacceptable and will be punished, but it also removes much of the threat Trump could pose going forward as, I understand it, he would lose his pension, his access to daily security briefings, free medical care and other amenities and benefits afforded to former Presidents. If impeached, he would not meet the definition of a Former President under the Former Presidents Act. I don't think it is clear whether he would continue to receive Secret Service protection.

 

[insidejob]

I agree with her sentiment, but she didn't actually point out specifically what the lies were in the presentation of the defense today.

It undermines their entire premise that Trump would never incite violence since she was there when they discussed how using violence/a show of force against protestors would help his campaign.

 

[UriUT]

So...I was just gonna skip the Trump defense, but decided to go ahead and watch. I gotta say, if you're sitting on the fence, this is a pretty convincing presentation. The problem the Democrats have is their rhetoric about Trump has been nonstop since 2016, so there is a crap ton of material to use to basically highlight the hypocrisy of the accusations. And I thought showing where the House Impeahment Managers selectively cut off Trump's comments to give context to comments he's made was a shrewd move.

I'm not saying this absolves Trump, but it definitely pokes holes in some of the arguments for impeachment.

I'd still be inclined to convict, but it's not going to be obvious to people giving Trump the benefit of the doubt.

Can you elaborate on that? It feels like a TDS argument, that the Democrats have been hysterical in their reaction to Trump without merit vis a vis to Tan Suit or Lock her up.

 

[Saintman2884]

Why are some people still stubbornly holding on to the notion that most BLM protests last summer were peaceful and non-violent. Burning down a forking Minneapolis police precinct isn't peaceful protesting,. Neither is rampaging along local downtown businesses in metro areas smashing windows stealing food, LCD Plasma TV screens from Best Buy, breaking and entering restaurants stealing anything that isn't nailed down. Having small business owners in Minneapolis/St. Paul saying in Yahoo articles their mayor, governor completely mishandled the situation and they don't want to rebuild in a city that can't control volatile situations.

Tearing down statues, rampaging and looting in DC this past summer isn't "peaceful protesting". Having a nearly 6-7 month long series of protests in Portland where far-left wing protesters screamed, attacked, and used violent, inflammatory language at cops and even the forking mayor, Ted Wheeler, who ironically, sympathized with them and took part in one of their marches. Sure, Trump was an authoritarian butt crevasse by sending uninformed FBI agents and snatched protesters In unmarked vans like Gestapo agents but even by then, the situation had gotten near or over the tipping point in spite of Orange wannabe El Duce's actions made it worse.

In Seattle this past summer, there was a group of activists who set up CHOP quasi-autonomous " occupation zone" over several blocks in the downtown area. Their were reports of a local far-left armed group, the John Brown Fighters, who patrolled this " zone" like self-appointed vigilantes to maintain order. There were also accounts or stories of some of these activists exploiting, using threats and intimidation for protection money against small business owners located within this "zone". There were reports of physical and sexual assaults by criminals who entered this CHOP zone because they felt emboldened by the total lack of a police presence.

In L.A. there were rioters breaking windows and stealing clothes from luxurious posh businesses all the while CNN reporters were covering it live with armed guards standing around him.

That is not a peaceful protest, and all those above-examples I've described werent either.
Stop perpetuating the bullshirt narrative that those events werent what you think they were and still obnoxiously stridently hold on to. Arguing it was all just white supremacists hijacking these protests is a cop-out and intellectually lazy and dishonest as a morally/ethically absolute justification. It insults my intelligence, too because it tries to deflect any possible or likely responsibility.

 

[insidejob]

I thought I didn't hear this moron correctly. Apparently I did.

 

[insidejob]

Why are some people still stubbornly holding on to the notion that most BLM protests last summer were peaceful and non-violent. Burning down a forking Minneapolis police precinct isn't peaceful protesting,. Neither is rampaging along local downtown businesses in metro areas smashing windows stealing food, LCD Plasma TV screens from Best Buy, breaking and entering restaurants stealing anything that isn't nailed down. Having small business owners in Minneapolis/St. Paul saying in Yahoo articles their mayor, governor completely mishandled the situation and they don't want to rebuild in a city that can't control volatile situations.

Tearing down statues, rampaging and looting in DC this past summer isn't "peaceful protesting". Having a nearly 6-7 month long series of protests in Portland where far-left wing protesters screamed, attacked, and used violent, inflammatory language at cops and even the forking mayor, Ted Wheeler, who ironically, sympathized with them and took part in one of their marches. Sure, Trump was an authoritarian butt crevasse by sending uninformed FBI agents and snatched protesters In unmarked vans like Gestapo agents but even by then, the situation had gotten near or over the tipping point in spite of Orange wannabe El Duce's actions made it worse.

In Seattle this past summer, there was a group of activists who set up CHOP quasi-autonomous " occupation zone" over several blocks in the downtown area. Their were reports of a local far-left armed group, the John Brown Fighters, who patrolled this " zone" like self-appointed vigilantes to maintain order. There were also accounts or stories of some of these activists exploiting, using threats and intimidation for protection money against small business owners located within this "zone". There were reports of physical and sexual assaults by criminals who entered this CHOP zone because they felt emboldened by the total lack of a police presence.

In L.A. there were rioters breaking windows and stealing clothes from luxurious posh businesses all the while CNN reporters were covering it live with armed guards standing around him.

That is not a peaceful protest, and all those above-examples I've described werent either.
Stop perpetuating the bullshirt narrative that those events werent what you think they were and still obnoxiously stridently hold on to. Arguing it was all just white supremacists hijacking these protests is a cop-out and intellectually lazy and dishonest as a morally/ethically absolute justification. It insults my intelligence, too because it tries to deflect any possible or likely responsibility.

You do realize that there were thousands of peaceful protests over the summer, right? And the one she's talking about specifically had no violence until Trump needed a photo op holding a bible upside down and he had people pepper sprayed just for being there so he could show force.

 

[RobF]

Why are some people still stubbornly holding on to the notion that most BLM protests last summer were peaceful and non-violent.

Bit off topic, but because most of them were. That's the reality.

That is not a peaceful protest, and all those above-examples I've described werent either.

Yes, but what you've done there is list the violent protests, and completely ignored the peaceful and non-violent ones, which, again, was most of them.

About 93% of racial justice protests in the US have been peaceful, a new report finds | CNN

The report, released Thursday, contradicts assumptions and claims by some that protests associated with the Black Lives Matter movement are spawning violence and destruction of property.

edition.cnn.com

It's a bit like arguing against the notion that most people aren't murderers by listing some murderers. It doesn't really work, does it?

 

[insidejob]

Oh good lord. The defense is going to cut things short because of Trump's concern about them "working on COVID relief."

 

[Booker]

Been listening. Part of their argument is apparently that there were people there with bad intentions who had planned to act before he spoke on 1/6, so he shouldn't be held accountable. But that ignores pretty much everything leading up to 1/6 -- why they were there, and why they had bad intentions and on whose behalf they had made their plans of action.

 

[Booker]

They've concluded the defense.

 

[insidejob]

Been listening. Part of their argument is apparently that there were people there with bad intentions who had planned to act before he spoke on 1/6, so he shouldn't be held accountable. But that ignores pretty much everything leading up to 1/6 -- why they were there, and why they had bad intentions and on whose behalf they had made their plans of action.

Exactly. He spent two solid months doing nothing but inciting what happened on 1/6.

 

[Saintman2884]

Bit off topic, but because most of them were. That's the reality.


Yes, but what you've done there is list the violent protests, and completely ignored the peaceful and non-violent ones, which, again, was most of them.

About 93% of racial justice protests in the US have been peaceful, a new report finds | CNN

The report, released Thursday, contradicts assumptions and claims by some that protests associated with the Black Lives Matter movement are spawning violence and destruction of property.

edition.cnn.com

It's a bit like arguing against the notion that most people aren't murderers by listing some murderers. It doesn't really work, does it?

MAYBE 75-80% were peaceful and non-violent. I'll concede at least that but if some of these same protests had people screaming, yelling violent threats and inflammatory language and a few of them may have tried to cause trouble or tear down statues because that, dc.d happen.

I'd love to know what the interpretations these researchers used in defining non-violent or peaceful. Even if there's no physical violence or injuries or deaths, if I'm a cop and I am trying to keep order and leaving people alone and exercise their Constitutional rights and some hot heads want to deliberately fork with me and threaten to kill me, and members of my family, thats in a way trying to incite violence. If we were co-workers and had this personal, bitter rivalry at our firm and I made veiled threats of physical harm or death threats to you or your family, that's perpetuating violence, IMHO, and not non-violent even if I didnt attack you or leave behind any significant damage to our shared office where we work and you would be perfectly within your rights to have me arrested and convicted and sentenced to maximum sentencing guidelines allowed under British criminal law, which I believe, still does issue life sentences in some cases, although recently they've moved away from such sentences in these types of criminal cases. Even though the UK outlawed the death penalty in 1963, a life sentence with no parole is essentially a death sentence in of itself just no state-sanctioned death penalty.

 

[DaveXA]

You do realize that there were thousands of peaceful protests over the summer, right? And the one she's talking about specifically had no violence until Trump needed a photo op holding a bible upside down and he had people pepper sprayed just for being there so he could show force.

Are we talking just DC? Or nationwide? I'm pretty sure the Minneapolis riots happened prior to that, among others.

Sure there were lots of peaceful protesting, but they certainly weren't all peaceful.

 

[insidejob]

Yeah, this happened too.

 

[Saintman2884]

You do realize that there were thousands of peaceful protests over the summer, right? And the one she's talking about specifically had no violence until Trump needed a photo op holding a bible upside down and he had people pepper sprayed just for being there so he could show force.

You forgot Minneapolis, LA, Portland, Seattle, Dallas, New York on multiple occasions and BTW, just because there were thousands of protests over this past summer isn't an excuse to paint it over.

There were thousands of Civil Rights protests and marches during the Civil Rights Movement that really were peaceful and nonviolent and they, as well as MLK, SCLC and those protesters who faced dogs, high-powered water houses, beatings, insults, death threats in Selma, Montgomery, Atlanta, Mississippi voters registration drive volunteers in 1964, Atlanta have my eternal admiration.

That doesn't mean me or you should ignore they were violent race riots in Detroit in 1967(which hurt the city's commercial and economic tax base and brain drain long-term), Washington D.C., Watts in August 1965, Newark, Bedford-Styvessant, NYC, Boston initially after MLK's assassination in 1968, Atlanta, Oakland in 1968, Baltimore in the late 60's-early 70's, Cleveland, and even Milwaukee, Wis.

 

[DaveXA]

Exactly. He spent two solid months doing nothing but inciting what happened on 1/6.

Pretty much this. This is why he should be impeached. He never conceded, and urged people to continue to fight even after the outcome of the election had become clear. He certainly led people to believe they could somehow influence Congressmen during what is normally a purely ceremonial process.

 

[DaveXA]

Yeah, this happened too.

The closed captions spelled his correct name, so I dunno. But I can't hear, so I wouldn't know. Heh.

 

[insidejob]

Are we talking just DC? Or nationwide? I'm pretty sure the Minneapolis riots happened prior to that, among others.

Sure there were lots of peaceful protesting, but they certainly weren't all peaceful.

He quoted her tweet that was specifically about that one DC peaceful protest and went off about riots nationwide.

 

[insidejob]

You forgot Minneapolis, LA, Portland, Seattle, Dallas, New York on multiple occasions and BTW, just because there were thousands of protests over this past summer isn't an excuse to paint it over.

There were thousands of Civil Rights protests and marches during the Civil Rights Movement that really were peaceful and nonviolent and they, as well as MLK, SCLC and those protesters who faced dogs, high-powered water houses, beatings, insults, death threats in Selma, Montgomery, Atlanta, Mississippi voters registration drive volunteers in 1964, Atlanta have my eternal admiration.

That doesn't mean me or you should ignore they were violent race riots in Detroit in 1967(which hurt the city's commercial and economic tax base and brain drain long-term), Washington D.C., Watts in August 1965, Newark, Bedford-Styvessant, NYC, Boston initially after MLK's assassination in 1968, Atlanta, Oakland in 1968, Baltimore in the late 60's-early 70's, Cleveland, and even Milwaukee, Wis.

I didn't forget anything.