"If you don't believe there was a Jesus, you are stupid" (2 Viewers)

[SystemShock]

Sometime ago, on a discussion on the Mother Board, a poster stated that even if you don't accept the the miracles and other extraordinary claims, if you don't believe a Jesus existed, you are stupid. It's always nice to be insulted.

That's a comment that I have heard before, though, as if the existence of some religious leader named Y'shua would validate anything that's said of Jesus in the Bible.

I don't doubt (I think it's more than likely, actually) that there were religious leaders (plural) around that time who made wild claims about god (or gods) and who spoke against the Roman occupation of Palestine, and who probably met their deaths on a crucifix for speaking against the Roman empire; heck, it could very well be that one of them was named Y'shua... who knows.

But, in the great scheme of things, a run-of-the-mill religious leader is irrelevant, because the Christian claim is not of some mundane religious leader speaking against the Roman empire, but of a very specific persona, with a very specific background, who's given very specific ordinary and extraordinary attributes, and without the background and extrardinary attributes, there is no Christianity.

The Jesus persona very much seems to be an amalgamation of many other deities before him, such as (going by memory here, hopefully I get them all right):
Krishna (who himself seems and amalgamation of other deities - virgin mother
Ishtar - crucified
Prometheus - sacrificed himself for mankind
Horus - resurrected
Dionysius - wine miracles
Asclepius - curing the sick
Orion - walking on water

Seems that, whoever created the Jesus character, went around picking attributes from Roman, Greek, Hindu, Zoroaastrian, and Egyptian deities.

You can point this out to the people who call you stupid for not believing that the Jesus of the Bible existed, and they'll still call you stupid for not believing.

 

[Booker]

Regarding the Gospels being “clever mythology,” that’s a pretty good jumping off point for some stuff I’ve prepared for this thread that I’ve pulled from different books I’ve read.

One of the cool things about how Mark and Matthew are written is their extensive use of chiasms and other literary patterns. A chiasm, for example, is a literary technique that uses an A-B-C-B1-A1 pattern, where C is either the focus or the fulcrum of the episode and A and B are generally referenced/reflected/reversed by B1 and A1, often in a way that reveals something about C.

Chiasms were sometimes used in ancient biographies, but they would do so by connecting events from different times, not chronological ones. The use of chiasms with chronologically depicted events, as you see in the Gospels, is an indication that the story being told is manufactured, like a fairy tale or myth.

I think, in regards to Mark and Matthew, it also indicates that they were more interested in communicating a message as opposed to actually reconstructing any kind of history. Mark and Matthew employ overarching chiasms – Mark, for example, begins with Jesus being announced by John and then appearing from Galilee, and concludes with Jesus disappearing to return to Galilee, and the women “say nothing” – but also use chiasms with their internal episodes.

A good example of an internal chiasm from Mark is the fig tree story wrapped around the cleansing of the Temple. On the way to the Temple, Jesus sees a fig tree and curses it for not bearing fruit, even though it’s not in season. They go to the Temple, yada, yada, yada, and on the way back the fig tree is withered.

Nothing about the story is historical. The fig tree is a metaphor for the Temple – it was no longer “bearing fruit” and the season for it had passed, so it was cursed and destined for destruction (this also provides an indication that the author was writing after the Temple was destroyed in the Roman-Jewish War, thus dating Mark to at least the 70’s).

Again, this is evidence that the stories are manufactured, not historical.

Follow up posts to follow…

 

[Booker]

Mark was the first Gospel and was also the primary source of the later Gospels, so it’s the best place to start when examining how the story was manufactured.

Mark Gospel breaks into four parts:

• Chapters 1-3 - The Discipling Narrative
• Chapters 4:1-8:26 – The Sea Narrative
• Chapters 8:27-10 – The Road Narrative
• Chapters 11-16 – The Passover Narrative

The Discipling Narrative and Road Narrative then create a chiasm around the Sea Narrative:

A (1:14-34) Peripheral ministry begins
B (1:35-38) People looking for Jesus to be healed (but Jesus says he needs to teach more people)
C (1:39-45) Jesus ventures out (‘throughout all Galilee’)
D (2:1-12) Jesus stops at Capernaum (explains he can forgive sins)
E (2:13-3:12) Problems and controversies
F (3:13-19) An important gathering on a mountain
G (3:20-35) Jesus is accused of being in league with Baalzebul (and preaches those who reject Jesus are damned)
H – THE SEA NARRATIVE (4-8)
G1 (8:27-9:1) Jesus accuses Peter of being in league with Satan (and preaches those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit are damned)
F1 (9:12-13) An important gathering on a mountain
E1 (9:14-32) Problems and controversies
D1 (9:33-50) Jesus stops at Capernaum (explains dangers of sin)
C1 (10:1-6) Jesus ventures out (expands his ministry beyond Galilee)
B1 (10:17-45) People looking to Jesus for boons (but Jesus teaches them the error of their ways)
A1 (10:16-52) Peripheral ministry ends

The Sea Narrative then has cycles within it:

A (4:1-5:20) Jesus with crowds by the sea (preaching from a boat), eventful crossing of sea, landing with healings/exorcisms
B (5:21-6:29) First stop (after an uneventful boating), second stop, going around
C (6:30-44) Jesus with crowds by sea (with an uneventful boating), eventful crossing of seas, landing with healing/exorcisms
B1 (6:56-7:37) Going around, first stop, second stop
A1 (8:1-26) Jesus with crowds by sea (with an uneventful boating), eventful crossing of seas, landing with healing/exorcisms

Then within the sea narrative, Jesus performs two sequences of five miracles, alluding to Moses performing five miracles in Exodus, and just as Moses begins with a water miracle (parting the Red Sea), so does Jesus in each sequence.

Sequence 1:

• 4:35-41 Jesus stills the storm
• 5:1-20 Exorcism of the gentile man
• 5:25-34 Curing an older woman
• 5:21-23, 35-43 Curing a younger woman
• 6:34-44, 53 Miraculous feeding of 5,000

Sequence 2:

• 6:45-51 Jesus walks on the sea
• 7:24-30 Exorcism of the gentile woman
• 7:32-37 Curing a deaf man with spit
• 8:1-10 Miraculous feeding of 4,000
• 8:22-26 Curing a blind man with spit

Regarding the water miracles, not only do they allude to Moses’ ‘mastery of waters,’ they also pull from additional scripture. For example, Jesus walking on water alludes to Job 9:8, where it’s said that God “treads on the waves of the sea” and Jesus stilling the storm is drawn from Psalm 107:29, “He stilled the storm to a whisper.” The miraculous feeding stories not only replicate Moses providing manna from heaven in Exodus, they also draw from 2 Kings 4:42-44, where Elisha multiplies twenty loaves for one hundred men.

There is also intentional duplication of language to help direct the reader to what Mark is doing. For example, when Elisha raises the dead child of the Shunammite, she is “ecstatic with all this ecstasy,” just as when Jesus raises the dead child of Jairus, he and his wife are “ecstatic with great ecstasy” – 2 Kings 4:31>Mark 5:42). Otherwise, Jesus healing the deaf and blind seems inspired by Isaiah 29:18 (“In that day the deaf shall hear…and…the blind shall see”) and Isaiah 35:5-6 (“Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped…).

More evidence of manufacture comes via parallels created within the baptism and crucifixion sequences:

• 1:3 John cries with a loud voice
• 15:34 Jesus cries with a loud voice
  
  
• 1:6 An allusion is made to Elijah
• 15:34-36 An allusion is made to Elijah
  
  
• 1:10 The heavens are torn
• 15:38 The Temple curtain (symbolizing the barrier between heaven and earth) is torn
  
  
• 1:10 The Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus
• 15:37 The Holy Spirit departs from Jesus
  
  
• 1:11 God calls Jesus his son
• 15:39 The Roman Centurion calls Jesus God’s son

The Passover narrative also seems to parallel the story of Jesus Ben Anias, as depicted in Josephus’ Jewish Wars (completed in 79, meaning that if Mark was using this story, then his gospel actually might date no earlier than the 80’s):

• Both are named Jesus
• Both come to Jerusalem during a major religious festival (Mark 14:2/JW 6:301)
• Both entered the Temple area to rant against the Temple (Mark 11:15-17/JW 6:301)
• During which both quote from the same chapter of Jerremiah (Mark>Jer. 7:11/JW>Jer 7:34)
• Both then preach daily in the Temple (Mark 14:49/JW 6:306)
• Both declared ‘woe’ unto Judea or the Jews (Mark 13:17/JW 6:304, 306, 309)
• Both predict the Temple will be destroyed (Mark 13:2/JW 6:300, 309)
• Both are for this reason arrested by the Jews (Mark 14:43/JW 6:302)
• Both are accused of speaking against the Temple (Mark 14:58/JW 6:302)
• Neither makes any defense of himself against the charges (Mark 14:60/JW 6:302)
• Both are beaten by the Jews (Mark 14:65/JW 6:302)
• Then both are taken to the Roman governor (Mark 15:1>Pilate/JW 6:302>Albinus)
• Both are interrogated by the Roman governor (Mark 15:2-4/JW 6:305)
• During which both are asked to identify themselves (Mark 15:2/JW 6:305)
• And yet again neither says anything in his defense (Mark 15:3-5/JW 6:305)
• Both are then beaten by the Romans (Mark 15.15/JW 6:304)
• In both cases the Roman governor decides he should release him…
• …but doesn’t (Mark); but does (JW) (Mark 15:6-15/JW 6:305)
• Both are finally killed by the Romans (Mark>execution/JW >artillery) (Mark 15:34/JW 6:308-309)
• Both utter a lament for themselves immediately before they die (Mark 15:34/JW 6:309)
• Both die with a loud cry (Mark 15:347/JW 6:309)

The crucifixion scene, as previously mentioned, also draws heavily from Psalms:

• Psalm 22:18 “The part my garments among them and cast lots upon them.”
• Mark 15:24 “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”
  
  
• Psalm 22:7-8 “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying “He expected the Lord to protect him, so let the Lord save him if he likes.”
• Mark 15:29-31 “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, “…Save yourself…” and mocked him, saying “He who saved others cannot save himself.”
  
  
• Psalm 22:1 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
• Mark 15:34 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

And again, the conclusion is meant to mirror/reverse the beginning:

John announces Jesus>>Jesus appears from Galilee --- Jesus disappears to Galilee>>the women say nothing

So there was a lot of literary invention that was required to craft Mark’s Gospel. The author was highly, highly educated, and his work is carefully manufactured with intentionally evident references to the various literary sources it was drawn from. It’s well-crafted mythology.

 

[Booker]

One more follow-up, this time to focus on Matthew. The talent displayed in putting together his gospel is in some ways even greater than that of Mark, as he takes Marks gospel – copying or paraphrasing about 90% of the lines in Mark – and augments and reworks the story into something more.

In particular, Matthew uses Jesus as a mouthpiece to instruct the faithful how to behave, and he does this by employing an overarching pattern that alternates between narrative chapters and discourse chapters:

1-4 Narrative>>5-7 Discourse>>8-9 Narrative>>Discourse>>11-12 Narrative>>13 Discourse>>14-17 Narrative>>18 Discourse>>19-22 Narrative>>23-25 Discourse>>26-28 Narrative

But within that scheme he also employs multiple levels of chiasms. There is an overarching chiasm, and there are chiasms within the larger chiasm, again, evidence that this is a manufactured narrative.

A (1:1-17) Genealogy (summary of past times)
B (1:18-25) Mary, an angel arrives, and the birth of Jesus
C (2:1-12) Gifts of wealth at birth (magi), attempt to thwart birth (Herod)
D (2:13-21) Flight to Egypt, woe to the children, Jermiah laments destruction of the first Temple
E (2:22-23) Judea avoided
F (3:1-8:23) Baptism of Jesus
G (8:24-11:1) Crossing the sea (twice)
H (11:2-19) John’s ministry
I (11:20-24) Rejection of Jesus
J (11:25-30) Secrets revealed through Jesus
K (12:1-13) Attack of the Pharisees
L (12:14-21) Pharisees determine to kill God’s servant
K1 (12:22-45) Condemnation of Pharisees
J1 (13:1-52) Secrets revealed through Jesus
I1 (13:53-58) Rejection of Jesus
H1 (14.1-12) John’s death
G1 (14:13-16:12) Crossing the sea (twice)
F1 (16:13-18:35) Transfiguration of Jesus
E1 (19:1-20:34) Judea entered
D1 (21:1-27:56) March to Jerusalem, woe to the children, Jesus predicts destruction of the second Temple
C1 (27:57-66) Gift of wealth at death (Joseph of Arimathea), attempt to thwart resurrection (Sanhedrin and the guards)
B1 (28:1-15) Mary, an angel arrives, and the resurrection of Jesus
A1 (28:16-20) Commission (summary of future times)

And there are substructures within each section, such as the parallels crafted with the Baptism (F) and Transfiguration (F1) sections:

Baptism:

• 3:1-12 Preliminary setting: John’s witness
• 3:13-17 Revelation of the Son
• 4:1-11 Satan Resisted
• 4:12-16 Removal to Capernaum
• 4:17-25 Recruiting of the disciples, beginning of the ministry
• 5:1-8:1 Sermon on the mount, in part about forgiveness
• 8:2-17 Faith and worship produce healing
• 8:18-23 What disciples must give up

Transfiguration:

• 16:13-28 Preliminary setting: Peter’s witness
• 17.1-13 Revelation of the Son, with a reference back to John
• 17:14-23 Satan cast out
• 17:24-27 Removal to Capernaum
• 18 Sermon on discipleship, faith, recruiting, and forgiveness

Another example of his use of chiasm can be found in the Passover narrative, again, evidence that the narrative is manufactured:

A (26:1-2) Passover and crucifixion
B (26:3-5) Priests plot
C (26:6-13) Jesus anointed for burial
D (26:17-19) Preparations: Judas enlisted, Passover prepared
E (26:20-25) Judas exposed
F (26:26-28) Lords Supper (a mock death) inaugurated
G (26:29) Nazirite vow made
H (26:30) Removal to Olivet
I (26:31-35) Abandonment
J (26:36-46) Jesus asks God not to be released
K (26:47-56) Judas betrays Jesus
L (26:57-68) Trial before Sanhedrin
M (26:69-75) Denial of Peter
L1 (27:1-2) Sanhedrin delivers Jesus to Pilate
K1 (27:3-10) Judas hangs himself
J1 (27:11-26) Pilate does not release Jesus
I1 (27:27-31) Mockery
H1 (27:32-33) Removal to Golgotha
G1 (27:34) Nazirite vow fulfilled
F1 (27:35-50) Crucifixion and death
E1 (27:51) Temple exposed
D1 (27:52-56) Results: Jesus’ lordship confirmed, the least are faithful
C1 (27:57-61) Jesus buried
B1 (27:62-66) Priests plot
A1 (28:1-10) Passover and resurrection

The Sermon on the Mount also provides a good example of the author’s use of literary structure, this time in using Jesus to inform the faithful how to behave in a post-Temple society (giving it away that it was constructed in the late first century):

A (4:23-5:1) Introduction, crowds ascend to the mountain
B (5:3-12) The nine (3x3) blessings
C (5:13-16) Summary statement (salt and light)
D [The three pillars begin]
E (5:17-48) How to obey the Torah
F (6:1-18) How to pay cult to God
E1 (6:19-7:12) How to deal with society
D1 [The three pillars conclude]
C1 (7:12) Summary statement (the golden rule)
B1 (7:13-27) The three warnings
A1 (7:28-8:1) Conclusion, crowds descend the mountain

So again, this is a very carefully put together piece of literature, written by a highly educated scribe who was very deliberate in what he wrote. Both the episodes and structure are manufactured and artificial -- he’s not reporting history, he’s creating “cleverly devised mythology.”