If there was ever a year a third party could make traction... (1 Viewer)

[tenordas]

surely this is it.

One party is running a man half the country hates - no, despises, the other is running a woman even most of the other politicians in her own party can't stand.

Where are you Libertarians? Green Party? Hello?

I thought 2016 was a real shot, but the two most viable third parties both put up unelectable morons.

All one of them needs is someone actually viable and IMHO they could sway a lot of people away from these two...

 

[coldseat]

Horse shirt... It means the majority of my state wanted a specific candidate... and if I didn't vote for that candidate... my vote wasn't silenced... I am in the minority... and my candidate LOST... That's all it means.. I have decorum... I know how to lose without foul or having to change the rules. The rules are fine.. the choices are the problem.

Yeah, because what the EC system has produced to date is GREAT!

The proof is in the pudding that you continue to complain about.

 

[coldseat]

Horse shirt... It means the majority of my state wanted a specific candidate... and if I didn't vote for that candidate... my vote wasn't silenced... I am in the minority... and my candidate LOST... That's all it means.. I have decorum... I know how to lose without foul or having to change the rules. The rules are fine.. the choices are the problem.

Also, as a voter, I don't want my vote to count for the winner of the state presidential election. That's not a thing and not what I'm voting for, that's what a governors race is for. I want my vote to count for the actual presidential election. The rules suck!

 

[Infoman]

You seem to think that cities are a monolith or maybe that the Democratic Party is a monolith, but that isn’t true. I don’t see how making every vote truly count would favor one region, one class of living, one set of values or one personal ideology. Cities are amalgams of all kinds of people, all classes, all sorts of values. I think getting rid of the EV puts us a step closer to having every vote weighted equally.

Not at all... It's just math and facts... I have already explained my stance on this many times... Issues and values of San Franciscans, are never going to be the same as issues and values of Omaha, NE residents... and the specific ever changing population of those areas will never be close to equal... but that doesn't mean said region(s) should be outweighed overwhelmingly by the other... because if they are - It's truly not a "representative government for all" - It's just highly populated higher income areas, making rules for those with generally less money and fewer people - that's why the EC is weighted the way it is....

 

[Infoman]

Yeah, because what the EC system has produced to date is GREAT!

The proof is in the pudding that you continue to complain about.

Systems is fine... the pudding has bad ingredients to chose from.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I was just pointing out how money/power has more influence than the will of the voters in the current system/landscape...

And the Electoral College system makes it easier for money/power to have more influence than the will of the voters. They only have to influence 51% of voters in just enough states to get 270 Electoral College votes. They don't have to do anything in a lot of states to heavily influence the outcome of a presidential election.

Without the Electoral College, they would have to influence a larger percentage of voters in every state to heavily influence the outcome of a presidential election, so it would be harder for them to influence presidential elections without the Electoral College system.

It's simple math and reality.

 

[Heathen]

I guess there's nothing I can tell you that will make you see what's at stake. If everything you have seen happening since 2016 doesn't convince you, nothing will.

One can understand that the right wishes to institute christofascism and that the Democratic Party is in large part to blame for that advancement.

And you obviously only see the importance of the "protest" vote if you vote 3rd party (because you very well know Jill Stein will never be POTUS, ever).

Not sure why you put protest in quotations - as if a protest vote has any less merit.

By ignoring the fact that left leaning voters in deep red states can vote 3rd party as there is no competition even if all of them voted Democrat, you’re effectively throwing the baby out with the bathwater with this argument.

Thanks for the breaking news on Jill Stein, though. I’ll have to relay this to her staffers.

But, hey, if Trump wins, I am sure we'll see you here complaining about all of the things the Republicans are doing...

As will you.

I know, I know, there's nothing you can do, just like the people who thought there was nothing they could do in 2016, and gave us a 6-3 SCOTUS and the overturn of Roe v Wade.

So to start, I never said there was nothing I could do. Where did you get that from?

Which group of people specifically are you blaming for Clinton losing in 2016, these people who thought “there was nothing they could do”?

 

[zztop]

relevant info to this topic (since it was mentioned... although it didn't get much traction in discussion)

Other party candidates and ranked choice voting

Does anyone know much about Libertarian candidate Jo Jorgensen? I can't find much on him her. Does anyone know much about him her and his her platform?EDITED: thread title to include discussion on any other party candidates, to vote or note vote for other party candidates, and ranked choice...

madaboutpolitics.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

One can understand that the right wishes to institute christofascism and that the Democratic Party is in large part to blame for that advancement.

Please explain in detail how the Democratic Party is in large part responsible for the advancement of christo-fascism. Don't spout off anymore of your broad proclamations.

Get down into the specific, objective, factual details of how exactly the Democratic Party is in large part responsible for the advancement of christofascism

Heathen laughs at my post, because he knows he can't backup what he's saying with specific objective facts, so cool. Laugh away in your utter wrongness.

 

[LA - L.A.]

relevant info to this topic (since it was mentioned... although it didn't get much traction in discussion)

Other party candidates and ranked choice voting

Does anyone know much about Libertarian candidate Jo Jorgensen? I can't find much on him her. Does anyone know much about him her and his her platform?EDITED: thread title to include discussion on any other party candidates, to vote or note vote for other party candidates, and ranked choice...

madaboutpolitics.com

Ranked choice voting coupled with the Electoral College very highly likely leads to the House of Representatives getting to choose the president, because no candidate is likely to get 270 votes. You can only go through the ranked choice voting rounds in each state. You can not do it collectively across all states. That means most likely more than two candidates are going to secure some states Electoral College votes which increases the chances that no candidate gets 270. That would mean the members of the House would vote by simple majority on who the president is.

 

[CoolBrees]

Horse shirt... It means the majority of my state wanted a specific candidate... and if I didn't vote for that candidate... my vote wasn't silenced... I am in the minority... and my candidate LOST... That's all it means..

Can you walk me through how this is different if you change the word "state" to "country"?

And there is a huge difference between someone from Los Angeles or The Bay Area and someone from Stockton or Barstow. Just like New Orleans to Shreveport.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Are we the only country that uses an EC?

Isn’t everywhere else popular vote?

I also think this is a ‘this is how we’ve always done it’ situation

Maybe I’m wrong but if America was popular vote from day one and someone tried to suggest switching to the electoral college system today I believe that person would get laughed out the room

If a high school was voting for class president but the “A” students’ votes or the athletes’ votes counted more or less that would be weird wouldn’t it?

 

[LA - L.A.]

Can you walk me through how this is different if you change the word "state" to "country"?

And there is a huge difference between someone from Los Angeles or The Bay Area and someone from Stockton or Barstow. Just like New Orleans to Shreveport.

And even within each of those cities, their is a huge amount of difference between individual voters. Los Angeles has been littered with Trump rallies and Trump supporters shouting on street corners going all the way back to 2016.

 

[CoolBrees]

One quick point of historical order.

The EC was not put into place to protect the minority.

It was in fact put into place as a compromise in the Constitution between those who wanted the states to pick the President and those that wanted the President to be picked by Congress.

The didn't trust uninformed voters in other words.

 

[samiam5211]

That wouldn't guarantee just two candidates either. Presidential elections are done at the state level. Even if all 50 states had an open primary with all candidates and then a runoff with the top two, that wouldn't guarantee all 50 states would have the same two runoff candidates on their ballots. There could be a different combination of top two candidates in every state which would make it even more likely that no one candidate would win enough Electoral College votes to win the election outright.

Unless one wants to risk letting the House of Representatives choose the president, the Electoral College has to go first and then we can shake up the domination of the two party system, otherwise the House of Representative will most likely being choosing the president.

There wouldn't be a different combination, because it wouldn't matter who won which state on the first vote. The two that make it to the final ballot would be determined by the total national vote.

The constitution says that states are in charge of the election of representatives and senators. It doesn't mention the presidential election. I think if Congress passed a law creating a structure for the "primary" process, it wouldn't violate the constitution.

The final vote would still use the electoral college, so there would be no constitutional issues there.

 

[LA - L.A.]

There wouldn't be a different combination, because it wouldn't matter who won which state on the first vote. The two that make it to the final ballot would be determined by the total national vote.

That's not how presidential elections work. There is no national election. There's 50 different individual elections which decide how the EC votes are given out.

You're objectively wrong about how it would work. Each state has their own winner. With ranked choice voting in each state, there could be more than 2 candidates that win some states.

To do what you want to do, the EC would have to be overturned by a Constitutional amendment.

 

[samiam5211]

That's not how presidential elections work. There is no national election. There's 50 different individual elections which decide how the EC votes are given out.

You're objectively wrong about how it would work. Each state has their own winner. With ranked choice voting in each state, there could be more than 2 candidates that win some states.

To do what you want to do, the EC would have to be overturned by a Constitutional amendment.

You are talking about the general election here. Nothing I suggested changes anything about the general election.

I am talking about primaries. The constitution doesn't discuss that process at all.

 

[CoolBrees]

If we are going to keep the stupid EC, I agree that votes should be doled out proportionally.

You win 60% of the state vote? You get 60% of the EC votes. Winner gets to round up in case of remainder.

 

[Optimus Prime]

That's not how presidential elections work. There is no national election. There's 50 different individual elections which decide how the EC votes are given out.

Thinks it’s more than the 50 state elections

Doesn’t each county have its own ballot?

There’s over 3000 counties in America

**which makes claim of rigging a national election even harder to swallow