Government Efficiency (3 Viewers)

[RobF]

I think this topic deserves its own thread, both to discuss generally the topic of government efficiency, and specifically the so-called 'Department of Government Efficiency' and the incoming Trump administration's aims to "dismantle Government Bureaucracy, slash excess regulations, cut wasteful expenditures and restructure Federal Agencies".

The announcements have been covered in the The Trump Cabinet and key post thread, but to recap, Trump has announced that Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy will work together on a not-actually-an-official-government-Department of Government Efficiency, which is intended to work with the White House and Office of Management & Budget to "drive large scale structural reform, and create an entrepreneurial approach to Government never seen before," with the 'Department' to conclude its work "no later than July 4, 2026."

Musk has previously said that the federal budget could be reduced by "at least $2 trillion", and Ramaswarmy, during his presidential campaign, said he would fire more than 75% of the federal work force and disband agencies including the Department of Education and the FBI.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

So what if Trump/Musk says "no, we're not going to do that." The only way to hold him accountable would be through impeachment, and we know that's not going to happen.

There's no "what if" there...it's WHEN they ignore the ruling!

 

[superchuck500]

So what if Trump/Musk says "no, we're not going to do that." The only way to hold him accountable would be through impeachment, and we know that's not going to happen.

I don't think it's that simple but we'll have to see.

 

[Booker]

I don't think it's that simple but we'll have to see.

Sure, but that's the simplified, cut-to-the-chase version. If/when the adminstation resists orders to undo what they've done, then what -- contempt? How would that be enforced?

And for arguments sake let's assume that there are appeals and things bounce back and forth through the courts for awhile. I would expect every nuance to be challenged, maybe even venue/jurisdiction, anything to gum things up (and also assume that while this drags out the administration will continue to resist reinstating eliminated people/positions/programs/etc.).

But if this were to eventually get to the Supreme Court, and even they were to rule against him, but he still says, "no, you can't make me" -- then what? The threat of impeachment would be the normal guardrail to hold a normal president accountable, but Trump is quite obviously abnormal.

 

[superchuck500]

Sure, but that's the simplified, cut-to-the-chase version. If/when the adminstation resists orders to undo what they've done, then what -- contempt? How would that be enforced?

And for arguments sake let's assume that there are appeals and things bounce back and forth through the courts for awhile. I would expect every nuance to be challenged, maybe even venue/jurisdiction, anything to gum things up (and also assume that while this drags out the administration will continue to resist reinstating eliminated people/positions/programs/etc.).

But if this were to eventually get to the Supreme Court, and even they were to rule against him, but he still says, "no, you can't make me" -- then what? The threat of impeachment would be the normal guardrail to hold a normal president accountable, but Trump is quite obviously abnormal.

Yes, for Trump that's really the only recourse. For the Trump administration and all that work for it, there's more on the table. The judiciary has ways to take punitive action and has the power in its rules to appoint persons other than US Marshals to execute court orders that have the effect of law.

Yes, of course the President and the executive branch could simply refuse and the Constitution is basically over at that point . . . smoke 'em if you got 'em. But this system tends to be resilient, I think it's best to let it play out over getting spun out in possibilities, even if they seem exceedingly likely.

 

[Booker]

Yes, for Trump that's really the only recourse. For the Trump administration and all that work for it, there's more on the table. The judiciary has ways to take punitive action and has the power in its rules to appoint persons other than US Marshals to execute court orders that have the effect of law.

Yes, of course the President and the executive branch could simply refuse and the Constitution is basically over at that point . . . smoke 'em if you got 'em. But this system tends to be resilient, I think it's best to let it play out over getting spun out in possibilities, even if they seem exceedingly likely.

I hear you, it just feels like we're watching the inevitable play out in slow motion. Congress won't/can't impeach and convict Trump, and I would expect he can and will pardon anyone working in his administration from punitive judiciary action.

At least I live in Colorado, so if/when the times comes to "smoke 'em if you got 'em" there will at least be good shirt to smoke.

 

[Optimus Prime]

WASHINGTON (AP) — Top Democrats on the House Judiciary and House Oversight committees have filed a lengthy Freedom of Information Act request questioning whether the Trump administration’s DOGE Service is operating “outside the bounds of federal law,” The Associated Press has learned.

Rep. Jamie Raskin of Maryland and Rep. Gerald Connolly of Virginia are seeking detailed information about the authority of the Department of Government Efficiency Service, including billionaire Trump adviser Elon Musk and some 40 other people, to carry out firings of federal workers and dismantling of federal agencies.

They also are requesting detailed information about DOGE’s access to sensitive data, its use of artificial intelligence, the resumes and training of its staff and its communications related to Musk-held entities including SpaceX, Starlink and Tesla.

“The Administration and Mr. Musk have hidden behind a veil of secrecy as they systematically dismantle the federal government of the United States,” the Democrats wrote in a letter to DOGE administrator Amy Gleason accompanying the FOIA request, which was obtained by the AP. “The American people deserve answers, and we are committed to using every tool at our disposal to expose the truth about DOGE’s operations.”…….

Top House Democrats seek DOGE details, questioning if it operates 'outside the bounds' of US law

Top Democrats on the House Judiciary and House Oversight committees have filed a lengthy Freedom of Information Act request about the Department of Government Efficiency.

apnews.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

So, my brother's agency is on the list that Trump wants to shut down, he's been there for nearly 20 years

When I talked with him he was as down and dejected as I've ever heard him

My girlfriend (who's own job is in limbo) is taking all this daily chaos, cruelty and uncertainty very hard and damn near had a panic attack (not an exaggeration) the other night over it all

Voight said that he wanted federal employees to feel trauma and distress every day

Well, mission accomplished butt crevasse

Fork him, fork Trump, fork Musk and everyone who voted for this

 

[MT15]

This is how “efficient” Musk and DOGE are:

DOGE stranded USAID workers with laptops full of sensitive data — The Verge

President Donald Trump and Elon Musk’s slash-and-burn approach to the US government has thrown federal agencies into disarray, as thousands of civil servants have been dismissed from their jobs without rhyme or reason.

apple.news

 

[Optimus Prime]

Several federally-operated campgrounds at one of Pennsylvania’s most popular summer destinations will be closed indefinitely due to “executive-order driven staffing shortages.”

Raystown Lake, in Huntingdon County, is the largest lake entirely within Pennsylvania. The 8,300-acre lake is managed by the U.S. Army Corps Engineers and, according to a news release from the agency’s Baltimore office, staffing shortages will require staff to focus on “dam operations for flood protection and emergency response readiness” ahead of the 2025 season.

According to the Army Corps, the lakes Seven Points, Susquehannock, and Nancy’s Boat-to-Shore Campgrounds will all be closed until further notice. All told, more than 300 campsites will be closed as a result of the announcement, including boat-in only sites.

Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) has targeted cutbacks at a slew of government agencies, including the Army Corps.

In addition, further north in Tioga County, Tompkins Campground on Tioga-Hammond and Cowanesque Lakes will also close, along with its swim beach and boat ramp. Tompkins has approximately 125 sites.

Avid campers know that lakefront campsites are difficult to obtain in the summer, in Pennsylvania and beyond, and many are reserved well in advance of the season. According to the Army Corps, refunds would be provided to campers who made reservations through Recreation.gov.

In Northwestern Pennsylvania, the U.S. Forest Service operates approximately 1,000 campsites on the Allegheny Reservoir, though there’s been no news of closures. A spokesperson for the agency could not immediately be reached for comment Tuesday...............

More than 425 popular campsites across Pa. are closed indefinitely due to DOGE cuts

Reservations made at impacted sites on Raystown Lake, Seven Points, Susquehannock, Nancy’s Boat-to-Shore Campgrounds, Tompkins Campground on Tioga-Hammond and Cowanesque Lakes will be refunded.

www.inquirer.com

 

[longtime lurker]

So, my brother's agency is on the list that Trump wants to shut down, he's been there for nearly 20 years

When I talked with him he was as down and dejected as I've ever heard him

My girlfriend (who's own job is in limbo) is taking all this daily chaos, cruelty and uncertainty very hard and damn near had a panic attack (not an exaggeration) the other night over it all

Voight said that he wanted federal employees to feel trauma and distress every day

Well, mission accomplished butt crevasse

Fork him, fork Trump, fork Musk and everyone who voted for this

I hear you. My wife’s position is in jeopardy also….the absolute destruction that this is doing across America is hideous and evil. Better days can’t get here soon enough.

 

[longtime lurker]

BTW….Optimus, they reinstated the illegally fired probationary employees at my wife’s agency today. Keep the faith that this will turn for your brother and gf, too.

 

[Optimus Prime]

A federal judge was alarmed by allegations that the so-called Department of Government Efficiency provoked a dramatic standoff this week with the U.S. Institute of Peace, culminating in what attorneys for the agency called a hostile “takeover” fueled by threats and harassment.

Federal prosecutors have threatened institute officials with criminal prosecution, DOGEmembers warned that a private security contractor would lose government contracts, and the institute’s president was forcibly removed by several law enforcement agencies – events that attorneys with the Department of Justice have not disputed.

In a hearing in Washington, D.C., Wednesday, District Judge Beryl Howell asked Justice Department attorneys whether Donald Trump’s administration could enforce his executive order seeking to shutter the agency “without using the force of guns and threats by DOGE against American citizens.”

“I mean, this conduct of using law enforcement, threatening criminal investigations, using arms of law enforcement … probably terrorizing employees and staff at the institute, when there are so many other lawful ways to accomplish the goals … why?” she said. “Just because DOGE is in a rush?”

The institute is not a federal agency but an independent nonprofit established by Congress under President Ronald Reagan. Its headquarters in Washington, D.C., is not government property, and its personnel are not federal employees. The institute employs roughly 600 people in the United States and overseas with a congressional mandate to help resolve international conflicts……..

Judge rebukes DOGE for ‘terrorizing’ U.S. Institute of Peace with ‘guns and threats’

Judge Beryl Howell delivers withering rebuke of Trump administration’s ‘offensive’ attempts to shutter independent agency

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Optimus Prime]

Amy Gleason - who Trump claims is running DOGE - has been working at another agency

Justice Department originally tried to seal document naming administrator’s second position

www.independent.co.uk

 

[DaveXA]

A federal judge was alarmed by allegations that the so-called Department of Government Efficiency provoked a dramatic standoff this week with the U.S. Institute of Peace, culminating in what attorneys for the agency called a hostile “takeover” fueled by threats and harassment.

Federal prosecutors have threatened institute officials with criminal prosecution, DOGEmembers warned that a private security contractor would lose government contracts, and the institute’s president was forcibly removed by several law enforcement agencies – events that attorneys with the Department of Justice have not disputed.

In a hearing in Washington, D.C., Wednesday, District Judge Beryl Howell asked Justice Department attorneys whether Donald Trump’s administration could enforce his executive order seeking to shutter the agency “without using the force of guns and threats by DOGE against American citizens.”

“I mean, this conduct of using law enforcement, threatening criminal investigations, using arms of law enforcement … probably terrorizing employees and staff at the institute, when there are so many other lawful ways to accomplish the goals … why?” she said. “Just because DOGE is in a rush?”

The institute is not a federal agency but an independent nonprofit established by Congress under President Ronald Reagan. Its headquarters in Washington, D.C., is not government property, and its personnel are not federal employees. The institute employs roughly 600 people in the United States and overseas with a congressional mandate to help resolve international conflicts……..

Judge rebukes DOGE for ‘terrorizing’ U.S. Institute of Peace with ‘guns and threats’

Judge Beryl Howell delivers withering rebuke of Trump administration’s ‘offensive’ attempts to shutter independent agency

www.independent.co.uk

Who gives a sheet if they're in a rush or not. They're asking the wrong questions. The real question is how in the hell does DOGE have any authority to do this at all. It's illegal on its face because it's not a federal agency. They aren't supposed to have any business there. I don't get it.

 

[SFIDC3]

Raystown Lake, in Huntingdon County, is the largest lake entirely within Pennsylvania. The 8,300-acre lake is managed by the U.S. Army Corps Engineers and, according to a news release from the agency’s Baltimore office, staffing shortages will require staff to focus on “dam operations for flood protection and emergency response readiness” ahead of the 2025 season.

For almost 20 years we owned a cabin in Spruce Creek PA, just about 15 minute from Raystown.....this will likely hurt the Huntingdon economy.....so dumb.....

I hope everyone affected by this BS has a good outcome, we have many friends and a few family members that have been impacted.....

 

[Optimus Prime]

A federal judge allowed Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency to remain in control of the U.S. Institute of Peace, an independent nonprofit created by Congress, but expressed concern about their conduct.

U.S. District Judge Beryl Howell said Wednesday she was offended by DOGE staff’s use of threats and law enforcement to gain access to the USIP headquarters and to remove the institute’s president, George Moose, from the building on Monday.

But she declined to immediately restore the former board members, who filed the lawsuit late on Tuesday, to their positions. Howell also declined to bar DOGE staff from USIP’s headquarters, which they gained access to on Monday in part with the help of the police.…..

Judge is 'offended' at DOGE's tactics but does not pause its takeover of the US Institute of Peace

A federal judge allowed Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency to remain in control of the U.S.

apnews.com

 

[bird]

A federal judge allowed Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency to remain in control of the U.S. Institute of Peace, an independent nonprofit created by Congress, but expressed concern about their conduct.

U.S. District Judge Beryl Howell said Wednesday she was offended by DOGE staff’s use of threats and law enforcement to gain access to the USIP headquarters and to remove the institute’s president, George Moose, from the building on Monday.

But she declined to immediately restore the former board members, who filed the lawsuit late on Tuesday, to their positions. Howell also declined to bar DOGE staff from USIP’s headquarters, which they gained access to on Monday in part with the help of the police.…..

Judge is 'offended' at DOGE's tactics but does not pause its takeover of the US Institute of Peace

A federal judge allowed Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency to remain in control of the U.S.

apnews.com

About as forking useless as Susan Collins and her “concern”.

 

[coldseat]

About as forking useless as Susan Collins and her “concern”.

Yeah, despite all the "injunctions" that are violated willy nilly, I have very little faith in the judiciary. They'll eventually fold like a wet paper towel in the face of this sustained, ultra-aggressive, authoritarian Trump administration. When this administration doesn't really care how the courts rule or what the law states, the "strongly worded statements and concerns" form judges in the face of all the illegality means little to nothing.