Electoral College vs Popular Vote (1 Viewer)

Users who are viewing this thread

    Optimus Prime

    Well-known member
    Joined
    Sep 28, 2019
    Messages
    11,340
    Reaction score
    14,827
    Age
    48
    Location
    Washington DC Metro
    Offline
    I know we’ve had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
    =================

    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……

     
    Last edited:
    I know where had good posts and conversations spread over a number of threads

    Thought we should have a single thread
    =================

    The electoral college is gearing up for the fall semester. An election that once promised a presidential rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump now features a fresh face in Vice President Kamala Harris.

    On Election Day, Americans will cast their votes — but it will be the college that determines the winner, weeks later. Sometimes its decision is to bypass the people’s choice and award the presidency to a candidate with fewer votes. That’s occurred twice in the last six presidential elections.

    And it’s not out of the question this year.


    The college was originally advertised as a shield against a fickle public and the excesses of democracy. Its deliberations would be governed by honorable, judicious men, who would avoid secrecy and plotting.

    The institution would harbor a preference for low-population states to ensure those in the minority have a strong voice. And it would use weighted calculus to help reach fair decisions. But today, its design is antiquated. The math, too old. The college has certainly seen its share of intrigue and corruption.

    Along the way, it’s become increasingly unrepresentative even as our democracy has become more accessible.

    For example, since Harris became the Democratic nominee, Trump has dropped nearly seven points in national polling. That shift represents millions of voters who’ve changed their minds about the election.

    But the people’s shift is of little interest in the college. There, states matter most. And its winner-takes-all system doesn’t care whether victory in a state is decided by one vote or 1 million.

    As a result, though Harris could win the popular vote by millions, Trump could still win more states. In a system designed more than 200 years ago, that combination means lopsided elections can become electoral nail-biters.


    In short, the college has lost touch with the campus. In 2016, though Hillary Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes, in the vote that counts she lost by 77 electors — an outcome effectively decided by 80,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    In 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 8 million, yet failed to match Trump’s margin of victory in the college four years earlier. Of those 8 million, the deciders amounted to just 44,000 people in Georgia, Arizona and Wisconsin.

    These numbers don’t add up. That’s why Americans favor scrapping the electoral college by a margin of 2 to 1. And it’s another reason the public has such low confidence in this not-quite-democracy…….

    We have options. One suggestion is to rely solely on a national popular vote, though wide margins of victory in a populous state put the race out of reach nationally. Clinton’s winning margin of 4.3 million votes in California is why she won the popular vote — without it, she loses the national vote by more than a million.

    Biden won the state by 5.1 million votes in 2020, more than the total population of 27 states.

    A more representative idea would be to allocate electoral votes in all states as Maine and Nebraska already do: two electors to the statewide winner and one vote for each congressional district.

    But that approach is spoiled by partisan gerrymandering, which can help losers of the statewide vote win more electors.


    A third alternative is a combination of the two. Assign electors based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote: win 60 percent of the vote, get 60 percent of the state’s electors.

    More importantly for our democracy, losing candidates can still receive the electors they earn. These changes would restore meaning to margins of victory and inspire candidates to compete in every state. Additional electors can be found wherever candidates lose by a little less or win by a little more. It’s even good for third parties.

    In 2016, under this scheme, Green Party nominee Jill Stein would’ve won an elector in both deep-blue California and deep-red Texas……


    I'm all for the third option here, if we are sticking with the EC.
     
    Until Texas goes blue, Republicans wont budge on this. I think when Texas becomes a blue state, this will be more viable as an option because they will have no way to win national elections after that happens.
     
    Until Texas goes blue, Republicans wont budge on this. I think when Texas becomes a blue state, this will be more viable as an option because they will have no way to win national elections after that happens.
    It will also change if Republicans win the popular vote but lose the EC
     
    I'm all for the third option here, if we are sticking with the EC.
    I've read a few articles about different options but none of them say "based on this option here is what the last X presidential elections would look like" (save popular vote which is easy to see)

    Pet peeve of mine for these articles
     
    Last edited:
    I've read a few articles about different options but none of this say based on this option here is what the last X presidential elections would look like (save popular vote which is easy to see)

    I might do the math on this later if I get bored enough. lol
     
    Haven’t had time to read the article yet - but does it mention the initiative that some states are pushing to make the EC obsolete? Cannot remember what they call it - but in this proposal states would be mandated by state law to assign their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote. If enough states go this way that equals 270 electoral votes, then the winner will always be the winner of the popular vote and no Constitutional amendment is needed.
     
    I'm all for the third option here, if we are sticking with the EC.

    I’ve posted my plan before:

    I want to reform it. I think the current EC is broken and a direct popular vote (the ideally best option) risks rural states feeling subjugated. We can't have a system where Wyoming get 1 EC vote per 177k people, the average state gets 1EC/565k people, and CA/TX get 1EC/730k (2008 numbers). We need to end the 538 number and have electors distributed as equally as feasible while also mandating proportional electors based on votes.

    I would keep a base of 3 EC however I would make it 1/state with the remaining based on population, current is 2/state. So WY gets 1 EC for being a state and 2 EC votes at 584k pop or 1EC/292k. No change for WY. With a US pop of 333M there would be appox 1140 EC votes or 602 more votes distributed among states. California accounts for 10% or 54 EC votes. With this plan CA would have about 134 votes or 11.7%. Again, I would mandate EC votes to be divided proportional. This isn't perfect, but it's better.

    I also think the House needs to grow to shrink districts and the Senate needs a 2/3/4 division based on population instead of 2/state. I would be totally fine with almost 1k Reps and 150 Sen to fit a new EC model.

    Our founders never imagined the massive population differences between states that we have today.
     
    I’ve posted my plan before:

    I want to reform it. I think the current EC is broken and a direct popular vote (the ideally best option) risks rural states feeling subjugated. We can't have a system where Wyoming get 1 EC vote per 177k people, the average state gets 1EC/565k people, and CA/TX get 1EC/730k (2008 numbers). We need to end the 538 number and have electors distributed as equally as feasible while also mandating proportional electors based on votes.

    I would keep a base of 3 EC however I would make it 1/state with the remaining based on population, current is 2/state. So WY gets 1 EC for being a state and 2 EC votes at 584k pop or 1EC/292k. No change for WY. With a US pop of 333M there would be appox 1140 EC votes or 602 more votes distributed among states. California accounts for 10% or 54 EC votes. With this plan CA would have about 134 votes or 11.7%. Again, I would mandate EC votes to be divided proportional. This isn't perfect, but it's better.

    I also think the House needs to grow to shrink districts and the Senate needs a 2/3/4 division based on population instead of 2/state. I would be totally fine with almost 1k Reps and 150 Sen to fit a new EC model.

    Our founders never imagined the massive population differences between states that we have today.
    We talked about options for the House and Senate before

     
    Haven’t had time to read the article yet - but does it mention the initiative that some states are pushing to make the EC obsolete? Cannot remember what they call it - but in this proposal states would be mandated by state law to assign their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote. If enough states go this way that equals 270 electoral votes, then the winner will always be the winner of the popular vote and no Constitutional amendment is needed.

    I fully expect a conserative SC to tell us the states can't do this IF enough states sign on to trigger it.
     
    I fully expect a conserative SC to tell us the states can't do this IF enough states sign on to trigger it.
    Yeah, probably. Expand the court!

    Found it, they have 209 electoral votes already, but getting more may be difficult.

     
    Yeah, probably. Expand the court!

    Found it, they have 209 electoral votes already, but getting more may be difficult.


    They have 209 but another 74 have at least one chamber that passed it.

    This is basically a faithless elector law. The SC would absolutely overturn this when an elector voted for their party instead of the popular vote winner.
     
    They have 209 but another 74 have at least one chamber that passed it.

    This is basically a faithless elector law. The SC would absolutely overturn this when an elector voted for their party instead of the popular vote winner.
    They would vote for the popular vote winner though - the national popular vote winner. Not for any particular party. It could work either way - it would force the parties to try to appeal to a majority of folks everywhere not just in 5 states, or not by suppressing the vote in 5 states.

    I’m sure the states that have enacted it have faced legal challenges. Maybe I’m not conveying it properly.
     
    I’ve posted my plan before:

    I want to reform it. I think the current EC is broken and a direct popular vote (the ideally best option) risks rural states feeling subjugated. We can't have a system where Wyoming get 1 EC vote per 177k people, the average state gets 1EC/565k people, and CA/TX get 1EC/730k (2008 numbers). We need to end the 538 number and have electors distributed as equally as feasible while also mandating proportional electors based on votes.

    I would keep a base of 3 EC however I would make it 1/state with the remaining based on population, current is 2/state. So WY gets 1 EC for being a state and 2 EC votes at 584k pop or 1EC/292k. No change for WY. With a US pop of 333M there would be appox 1140 EC votes or 602 more votes distributed among states. California accounts for 10% or 54 EC votes. With this plan CA would have about 134 votes or 11.7%. Again, I would mandate EC votes to be divided proportional. This isn't perfect, but it's better.

    I also think the House needs to grow to shrink districts and the Senate needs a 2/3/4 division based on population instead of 2/state. I would be totally fine with almost 1k Reps and 150 Sen to fit a new EC model.

    Our founders never imagined the massive population differences between states that we have today.

    Dear god, yes please expand the House.
     
    Dear god, yes please expand the House.
    Need to overturn The Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 which is easier than a Constitutional Amendment to make any changes to the Electoral College system. This is what broke the Electoral College system and equal representation for all voters. It also creates a significant barrier between a representative and their constituents.

    "A larger House would put representatives back in closer proximity to those whom they represent. It would increase the number of office holders and therefore the likelihood that we could meaningfully diversify who serves. Perhaps most importantly, it would also restore a principle of elasticity and flexibility to the Electoral College. The number of electors flows from the combination of the number of Congresspeople (the popular sovereignty principle) and from the number of Senators (the union-of-states principle). If Congress could grow, the current overweighting of the Electoral College to less-populous places would be rebalanced. California, Florida, Texas, and New York could get their fair share. This would rectify the legitimacy problem currently developing around the Electoral College and give us more responsive representation."​

     
    Last edited:

    Create an account or login to comment

    You must be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create account

    Create an account on our community. It's easy!

    Log in

    Already have an account? Log in here.

    General News Feed

    Fact Checkers News Feed

    Back
    Top Bottom