Durham investigation (Update: Sussman acquitted) (4 Viewers)

[SaintForLife]

It looks like the first shoe has dropped with the Durham investigation with the Clinesmith plea deal. Clinesmith wasn't a low level FBI employee involved in the Crossfire Hurricane investigation.

He worked with Strzok to arrange sending an FBI agent into Trump-Flynn briefing, was on the Mueller team, he took part in the Papadopoulos interviews, and he participated in the FISA process.



From the NYT article:

Ex-F.B.I. Lawyer Expected to Plead Guilty in Review of Russia Inquiry (Published 2020)

Prosecutors did not reveal any evidence of the kind of broad anti-Trump conspiracy among law enforcement officials that the president has long alleged.

www.nytimes.com

I wonder who else knew about the lies?

 

[DaveXA]

It is sort of getting mixed up, but this was used as an example of how "both sides" are equally extreme.

Yeah, I find the whole "both sides" debate pointless and futile tbh. Strikes me as sort of a "my team is less bad that yours" sort of argument.

What I'd rather discuss is the merits or validity of positions and circumstances facing either party. Call out injustice wherever I see it and commend good actions when I see it regardless which side does what.

 

[MT15]

It is sort of getting mixed up, but this was used as an example of how "both sides" are equally extreme.

And it has turned into a really great example of how both sides are not equally extreme at all.

Yeah, I find the whole "both sides" debate pointless and futile tbh. Strikes me as sort of a "my team is less bad that yours" sort of argument.

What I'd rather discuss is the merits or validity of positions and circumstances facing either party. Call out injustice wherever I see it and commend good actions when I see it regardless which side does what.

That’s great, but a really common tactic used by the far right is that both sides are equally extreme, which totally exonerates them from some really bad shirt they are doing or trying to do.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

My definition of a woman is pretty basic, maybe they can have babies (maybe they can’t). They have ovaries, fallopian tubes, a uterus, vagina, valve. They menstruate. They don’t have a penis.

Is that how you medical professionals describe a woman? If not, fill me in. Honestly, what is a woman?

You know for a fact that not all women menstruate, have ovaries and fallopian tubes. Some men are born with vaginas. Some women are born with both a penis and a vagina and a uterus but no working ovaries.

These are exceptions, but they are about as frequent as transgender women.

There are also people born with an XY chromosome and the SRY gene, and undescended testes but look like a girl when they are born and go through puberty like a woman (develop breasts) and look like women and have always been treated as women. But are biologically "male".

Because the fact of the matter is, we have always treated someone as a woman when we believe they are a woman. It's a tautology. In the most rigid of societies that comes with a certain look and expectations of behavior, and those that fall out of it are ostracized. We are becoming less rigid, with less stringent gender norms... but we still have some general expectations.

So, I don't have an actual answer to "what is a woman". There are two parts to that question -- one is individual determinism to claim your own space in the world, and the other is what society accepts -- both society and the individual have rights, and they don't always line up. For me, if someone asks me to treat them as a woman (or a man), that's good enough for me... I try to not treat people too different based on gender anyway, and it generally costs me nothing. I also try not to force someone else to accept someone else's gender identification beyond mere basic politeness. It's a confusing world now...

But to bring it back to the original point -- given you can't give a precise definition of a woman that doesn't have tons of exceptions, maybe the general discussion isn't as extreme as you originally made it out to be.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

If anyone is curious.. you can look up all sorts of intersex conditions... for example there is Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome - where a man has all the working male parts, but also fallopian tubes and a uterus.

You can generally find an exception to any "biological" definition... because we don't classify people that way... the traditional way has been based phenotypically and the ambigous gonad intersex people get thrown into one based on parental preference. Even then, there are weird exceptions like the güevedoce in Guatemala where they are born with a vagina, but develop a penis around puberty.

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/persistent-mullerian-duct-syndrome/​

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I actually did clarify what I believe a woman to be (a few posts above). I don’t see where you have shared any thoughts on what you thought a woman was, so maybe you can enlighten us as to what you think a woman is.

If you mean this:

My definition of a woman is pretty basic, maybe they can have babies (maybe they can’t). They have ovaries, fallopian tubes, a uterus, vagina, valve. They menstruate. They don’t have a penis.

Your definition is severely lacking and, frankly, laughably ridiculous. Anyone who genuinely believes this is not someone that can be taken seriously.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

What the hell does all this "what is a woman" talk have to do with the Durham investigation? I keep forgetting this isn't a different thread.

Dang, I didn't even realize what thread this was. I've just been reading and not looking at the thread title.

 

[el caliente]

If you mean this:



Your definition is severely lacking and, frankly, laughably ridiculous. Anyone who genuinely believes this is not someone that can be taken seriously.

I blame it on my Orleans Parish high school education, because that is what was taught in sex ed.

But what is a woman to you?

 

[el caliente]

Dang, I didn't even realize what thread this was. I've just been reading and not looking at the thread title.

Did you go to a New Orleans public school too?

You know for a fact that not all women menstruate, have ovaries and fallopian tubes. Some men are born with vaginas. Some women are born with both a penis and a vagina and a uterus but no working ovaries.

These are exceptions, but they are about as frequent as transgender women.

There are also people born with an XY chromosome and the SRY gene, and undescended testes but look like a girl when they are born and go through puberty like a woman (develop breasts) and look like women and have always been treated as women. But are biologically "male".

Because the fact of the matter is, we have always treated someone as a woman when we believe they are a woman. It's a tautology. In the most rigid of societies that comes with a certain look and expectations of behavior, and those that fall out of it are ostracized. We are becoming less rigid, with less stringent gender norms... but we still have some general expectations.

So, I don't have an actual answer to "what is a woman". There are two parts to that question -- one is individual determinism to claim your own space in the world, and the other is what society accepts -- both society and the individual have rights, and they don't always line up. For me, if someone asks me to treat them as a woman (or a man), that's good enough for me... I try to not treat people too different based on gender anyway, and it generally costs me nothing. I also try not to force someone else to accept someone else's gender identification beyond mere basic politeness. It's a confusing world now...

But to bring it back to the original point -- given you can't give a precise definition of a woman that doesn't have tons of exceptions, maybe the general discussion isn't as extreme as you originally made it out to be.

I have no problem calling someone by the name they prefer, and if someone prefers to live life as a gender that they don’t appear to be, I have no problem letting them do so (I may not accept it, but it’s their life not mine).

Thanks for the info above, I will take it under consideration.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Did you go to a New Orleans public school too?

Almost as bad. Mobile.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I blame it on my Orleans Parish high school education, because that is what was taught in sex ed.

But what is a woman to you?

Stop trolling. Your own definition is demonstrably wrong and you have shown no desire to engage honestly.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Did you go to a New Orleans public school too?

I have no problem calling someone by the name they prefer, and if someone prefers to live life as a gender that they don’t appear to be, I have no problem letting them do so (I may not accept it, but it’s their life not mine).

Thanks for the info above, I will take it under consideration.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable stance to take... I generally object to anyone saying that it's an objective fact that a transwoman is a woman. To my understanding there isn't any scientific basis for that either - I just like to point out that it's complicated, and it's a social issue and society hasn't made that determination yet, and it may never make that determination. But I do think most of us recognize that we shouldn't be butt crevasses to each other as long they aren't trying to hurt other people.

 

[el caliente]

Stop trolling. Your own definition is demonstrably wrong and you have shown no desire to engage honestly.

I don’t think my own definition is any different than your definition.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I don’t think my own definition is any different than your definition.

I never gave you a definition and you have been shown that yours is demonstrably wrong.

 

[SaintForLife]

You are being a troll in this case. You have no answer for anything I said, other than to what-about so hard you probably got whiplash. Nobody is changing the description of what a woman is, and if you think that you’re worse off than I thought.

What is happening is that a lot of people have recognized that there are people who have a disconnect between physical sex and gender. These people suffer great anguish and are at high risk for suicide. What helps them to not kill themselves is a little bit of understanding and empathy. A little bit of respecting their wishes on pronouns and such. Appropriate treatment, when warranted.

You love to act like you’re above politics but you are playing team politics so hard here that it makes you look like an arse.

Still calling people trolls when you disagree with them? Some things never change

 

[SaintForLife]

any media who run this as a serious report should be suspected of political bias.

I knew you would post some partisan source instead of even just a news article that talked about what the Durham report found.

Durham failed in holding the people responsible for the Trump Russia collusion narrative, but he did expose the scheme. Hillary created the Trump Russia collusion narrative with Fusion GPS & Christopher Steele. Long time Clinton Operative Charles Dolan was a source of the discredited Steele Dossier. Brennan briefed Obama on Hillary plan to link Trump with colluding with Russia to help him win the election.

I'll post the receipts whenever Twitter is back to normal.

 

[DaveXA]

I knew you would post some partisan source instead of even just a news article that talked about what the Durham report found.

Durham failed in holding the people responsible for the Trump Russia collusion narrative, but he did expose the scheme. Hillary created the Trump Russia collusion narrative with Fusion GPS & Christopher Steele. Long time Clinton Operative Charles Dolan was a source of the discredited Steele Dossier. Brennan briefed Obama on Hillary plan to link Trump with colluding with Russia to help him win the election.

I'll post the receipts whenever Twitter is back to normal.

Lol, still going with the nonsense narrative I see.

 

[SaintForLife]

Lol, still going with the nonsense narrative I see.

Says the guy who obviously hasn't read even the bullet points from the Durham report.

 

[DaveXA]

Says the guy who obviously hasn't read even the bullet points from the Durham report.

I have, and I think it's nonsense.