Does Trump ever do any jail time? (1 Viewer)

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Optimus Prime

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Everything I've seen and heard says that the split second Donald Trump is no longer president there will be flood of charges waiting for him

And if he resigns and Pence pardons him there are a ton of state charges as an understudy waiting in the wings if the fed charges can't perform

What do you think the likelihood of there being a jail sentence?

In every movie and TV show I've ever seen, in every political thriller I've ever read about a criminal president there is ALWAYS some version of;

"We can't do that to the country",

"A trial would tear the country apart",

"For the nation to heal we need to move on" etc.

Would life imitate art?

Even with the charges, even with the proof the charges are true will the powers that be decide, "we can't do that to the country"?
 
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DaveXA

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Shooting someone and killing someone are two different things. It's hyperbole until it actually happens. You're entitled to your opinion on it. I base my opinion on it on his followers and enablers, the same followers and enablers who looked the other way during impeachment when they essentially fixed the trial to allow him to walk. If Senators in the face of a mountain of evidence would do what they did, what makes someone think that an everyday trump supporter, some of whom have publicly stated they would die for trump, wouldn't gleefully vote to acquit him in a trial.

After everything trump has said and done, 70 million people still voted for him to be president. I think the case for not losing voters has been more than made.
I personally know people who voted for Trump the first time around and became disgusted with him and voted for Biden this time around. So no, it hasn't been made. He gained voters only in the sense that more people voted this election than last, due in no small part to greater ease of access to voting than ever before.

And sure, if you can't see that his comments were hyperbole, then I find that an unreasonable position to take. I hate Trump, but I'll call a spade a spade.
 

FullMonte

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Well, I've never believed that of Trump literally shot someone in public that he would get away with it. It was always hyperbolic, and it still is.
The problem with that line of thinking is this. The wall was never a literal wall that was going to be built. It was a hyperbolic mnemonic to remind Trump to focus on immigration during the campaign. But, Trump quickly forgot that it was hyperbole, and boom...it became an actual physical wall that he was going to build.

While it's fine to use hyperbole to make a point, when the person using it (or the people hearing it) forget that it's hyperbole, it becomes a dangerous problem.
 

MT15

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I do think that serious crimes need to be investigated and charged if warranted. Both for Trump and any other members of his administration. The process must be apolitical, though, and scrupulously so. Otherwise it seems just like the “lock her up” chant that Trumpists have so warmly embraced. Trump himself has threatened to lock up just about every political opponent and mused about locking up members of the press. So it’s going to be a tight wire balancing act to hold him accountable without seeming to be exacting political revenge. It’s worth pursuing but carefully.
 

DaveXA

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The problem with that line of thinking is this. The wall was never a literal wall that was going to be built. It was a hyperbolic mnemonic to remind Trump to focus on immigration during the campaign. But, Trump quickly forgot that it was hyperbole, and boom...it became an actual physical wall that he was going to build.

While it's fine to use hyperbole to make a point, when the person using it (or the people hearing it) forget that it's hyperbole, it becomes a dangerous problem.
Yeah, clearly the wall was strictly a campaign strategy originally based in hyperbole. But once he got in office, he probably was surprised there was enough support to actually get that done. I don't think he ever actually intended to do the wall. Once he figured that was something he could do, he used it to demonize Mexico and bully them into stopping immigrants from passing through and used the wall as a prop to keep his base interested. I'll never forget that press conference he held where there were erecting the new wall he was bragging how people couldn't scale the wall, then you had clips of people easily climbing the wall.

His hyperbole becoming reality is usually a fluke.
 

DaveXA

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I do think that serious crimes need to be investigated and charged if warranted. Both for Trump and any other members of his administration. The process must be apolitical, though, and scrupulously so. Otherwise it seems just like the “lock her up” chant that Trumpists have so warmly embraced. Trump himself has threatened to lock up just about every political opponent and mused about locking up members of the press. So it’s going to be a tight wire balancing act to hold him accountable without seeming to be exacting political revenge. It’s worth pursuing but carefully.
Well said. The focus has to be on justice and not political revenge. I'm not sure it's possible though. At least not if Congress is involved. I think it's going to have to come from outside Washington because the agencies in DC have too many political entanglements to be considered apolitical in any sort of investigation. Hopefully SDNY can do what they do. But prosecuting a former US President will be no walk in the park. That said, if Trump is using his current legal team...good luck with that. Lol.
 

JRad

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I think you let the Justice Department do what they feel is best, without worrying about people's feelings. I'm fine with Biden taking the position of "the JD is an independent branch, and I have not issued guidance one way or the other".
 

DaveXA

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I think you let the Justice Department do what they feel is best, without worrying about people's feelings. I'm fine with Biden taking the position of "the JD is an independent branch, and I have not issued guidance one way or the other".
I agree in theory, but until a walling off between the DOJ and WH is codified, I'm not sure that's possible. POTUS is the one who appoints the AG. So I'm not seeing it. Would probably have to appoint an Independent Counsel for an investigation. I'm not sure Biden even wants to do that though.
 
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Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime

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So my girlfriend is solidly in the 'move on' camp, saying why spend the time, effort, expense, energy and political capital all of which she says should be spent elsewhere

And I don't disagree but I still think it's important to look into and pursue

if crimes were committed Trump deserves to be punished for them

But a message needs to be sent that this isn't acceptable, for the next Trump

We can't let someone think that if they are president and their party holds all of congress they can get away with pretty much whatever they want in office and once out of office the country will want to 'move on'

The next Donald Trump may be as corrupt, shameless and amoral as Trump but may also be smarter, may know how government and politics works, may have more impulse control, won't be a raging narcissist and won't surround themselves with people who are hilariously unqualified

A nightmare would be a much younger, much more charismatic and much more attractive (hey, it matters) Mitch McConnell as president, with a cabinet full of Mitch McConnells and a Congress full of Mitch McConnells who is also able to generate the same kind of cultish devotion in the base that Trump does.

If that ever happens who knows what the result of that would be

I think Matt Gaetz thinks he may be the next trump. I don't he think he is. I don't think it's Jim Jordan or Trump Jr. or Marco Rubio

I don't think we've seen the next Trump on the national stage yet, I think he or she is a wildly ambitious youngish late 20s early 40s, maybe involved in local politics and is years away from emerging but who has been watching the Trump Administration closely and has been taking very good notes
 

FullMonte

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Yeah, clearly the wall was strictly a campaign strategy originally based in hyperbole. But once he got in office, he probably was surprised there was enough support to actually get that done. I don't think he ever actually intended to do the wall.
I think he started before he got into office. On the campaign trail, he repeatedly discussed how the wall would be built, how big it would be, etc. I don't think it was Trump realizing there was support for it. I think it was Trump speaking, off script, off the top of his head, and mentioning a wall, and when someone cheered, he just kept going.

Much like the rest of his stream of conscious nonsense, he just started talking about the one word that was in his head, and before long he was building a wall. Then, the narcissist kicked in, and he couldn't say "I wasn't really going to build a wall, it was a metaphor," so then before long, you and I were paying to build a wall.
 

FullMonte

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A nightmare would be a much younger, much more charismatic and much more attractive (hey, it matters) Mitch McConnell as president, with a cabinet full of Mitch McConnells and a Congress full of Mitch McConnells who is also able to generate the same kind of cultish devotion in the base that Trump does.
I think a bigger nightmare is another Trump who is smart and who has a grasp of how the world works outside of their bubble. With the blind devotion Trump had from his supporters in the Senate and the House, if he was the least bit competent at understanding the office of President, he could have done some real damage.
 

Taurus

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So my girlfriend is solidly in the 'move on' camp, saying why spend the time, effort, expense, energy and political capital all of which she says should be spent elsewhere

And I don't disagree but I still think it's important to look into and pursue

if crimes were committed Trump deserves to be punished for them

But a message needs to be sent that this isn't acceptable, for the next Trump

We can't let someone think that if they are president and their party holds all of congress they can get away with pretty much whatever they want in office and once out of office the country will want to 'move on'

The next Donald Trump may be as corrupt, shameless and amoral as Trump but may also be smarter, may know how government and politics works, may have more impulse control, won't be a raging narcissist and won't surround themselves with people who are hilariously unqualified

A nightmare would be a much younger, much more charismatic and much more attractive (hey, it matters) Mitch McConnell as president, with a cabinet full of Mitch McConnells and a Congress full of Mitch McConnells who is also able to generate the same kind of cultish devotion in the base that Trump does.

If that ever happens who knows what the result of that would be

I think Matt Gaetz thinks he may be the next trump. I don't he think he is. I don't think it's Jim Jordan or Trump Jr. or Marco Rubio

I don't think we've seen the next Trump on the national stage yet, I think he or she is a wildly ambitious youngish late 20s early 40s, maybe involved in local politics and is years away from emerging but who has been watching the Trump Administration closely and has been taking very good notes

Your GF needs to realize what 'moving on' does to morale. It was a slap in the face to all America when Ford pardoned Nixon, it was proof positive that there are two systems of justice. One for the high and mighty, one for us plebes. It's a direct repudiation of our founding principle, that no one is above the law.

Trump is a symptom of the disease Ford infected us with. Why are people so angry? Why do they hate the Establishment so much, loathe our government so much that they're giddy at the chance to just burn it all down?

Because it's a lie. Ford showed us it's a lie. Pardoning Trump or intentionally ignoring his many, odious, dangerous, vile crimes would rub our noses in the lie, cram it down our throats and slap us in the face with our chump-hood. That kind of damage doesn't go away, it festers, spreads and becomes a justified loss of faith in America itself.
 

GMRfellowtraveller

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I think he started before he got into office. On the campaign trail, he repeatedly discussed how the wall would be built, how big it would be, etc. I don't think it was Trump realizing there was support for it. I think it was Trump speaking, off script, off the top of his head, and mentioning a wall, and when someone cheered, he just kept going.

Much like the rest of his stream of conscious nonsense, he just started talking about the one word that was in his head, and before long he was building a wall. Then, the narcissist kicked in, and he couldn't say "I wasn't really going to build a wall, it was a metaphor," so then before long, you and I were paying to build a wall.
His handlers (I think it was bannon and sessions) have pretty much admitted they came up with ‘the wall’ idea for trump to remember to talk about immigration
 

DaveXA

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His handlers (I think it was bannon and sessions) have pretty much admitted they came up with ‘the wall’ idea for trump to remember to talk about immigration
I thought I had read something like that before. I wanted to say the campaign came up with the idea, but that makes sense. Definitely something Bannon would do.
 

Saint by the Bay

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The more I'm watching the level of demagoguery post-election by him and his enablers my attitude is changing. Getting away with it all is what has led us to this point. They really believe there are no consequences for anything they say or do.

I'm starting to believe it's important for the future of our democracy to make it clear none of this is OK. The next demagogue with millions of cult followers may not be a complete moron. If we don't ensure there are consequences for blatant corruption, abuse of power, and obstruction of justice we are telling the next one that it's all OK.
 

DaveXA

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The more I'm watching the level of demagoguery post-election by him and his enablers my attitude is changing. Getting away with it all is what has led us to this point. They really believe there are no consequences for anything they say or do.

I'm starting to believe it's important for the future of our democracy to make it clear none of this is OK. The next demagogue with millions of cult followers may not be a complete moron. If we don't ensure there are consequences for blatant corruption, abuse of power, and obstruction of justice we are telling the next one that it's all OK.
I'm getting there as well. I'm not sure what we can make stick though. The devil is in the details and you've got to not only prove these things in a court of law, you've got to determine what the penalties are and what would apply to a President after he leaves office. Easier said than done. At minimum, guardrails need to be strengthened and I think the power of the President needs to be curbed somewhat. Probably in the area of narrowing the definition and efficiacy of executive orders and walling off his access to the investigative agencies so that the agencies have more autonomy.

Campaign finance and financial entanglements need to be dealt with prior to a candidate being able to run. No tax records? You can't run. No divestiture of all businesses? You can't run.

Also, relatives cannot be a part of the Administration cabinet or otherwise. All must have proper security clearances (not provisional) before being allowed to work in the WH in a formal capacity.

I think there is a lot that can be done. I don't know how you deal with rhetoric though. That's a free speech issue, and there's a lot of latitude in what people can say, no matter how much you might not like it. So that's a tough issue.

Not sure what else we can do other than giving the rules teeth to be enforceable going forward.
 

Yggdrasill

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What's preventing Trump from pardoning himself before leaving office? He can do so for anything that he has done, even if he has yet to be investigated or charged.
 
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Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime

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What's preventing Trump from pardoning himself before leaving office? He can do so for anything that he has done, even if he has yet to be investigated or charged.
I think it’s unclear if a president can self pardon and even if he could it wouldn’t affect any state charges

Also don’t there have to be specific charges before there can be a pardon?

“I pardon myself for anything illegal I may have done” seems odd
 

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