Colin Powell (2 Viewers)

[el caliente]

While certainly it’s not proper to speak ill of the dead, Powell had an impressive career, and IMHO is the closest thing this era has had to Alexander Hamilton (debate that among yourselves).

As great a man as he was, some people couldn’t stop taking pot shots at him even on the day of his death.

 

[SaintForLife]

What a horrible person you follow on Twitter. Your Twitter feed is awful, apparently.

Are you aware of how many people that have been killed by the US empire that invades other countries and causes death and destruction so the US Oligarchs can continue to enrich themselves?

 

[SaintForLife]

This is a good example of people seeing what they want to see and ignoring history. But, can't say it's surprising considering the source.

It sounds like that you have fallen victim to the US propaganda that we are only trying to promote “freedom” instead of following the money of how the US Oligarchs and the military industrial complex enrich themselves.

Look at how the immoral sanctions in Syria are starving people who are trying to rebuild their lives. Do you think that is a good thing?

 

[el caliente]

What do you believe his role was in that massacre?

As for his "willful delusions" to the Iraq war, are you saying the man who put a stop to the 1st Gulf War allowed himself to be deceived into a 2nd war?

The first war was stopped because he understood what occupying Iraq would take and that no one wanted to pay that price! Back then, there were some of the same voices calling for the full invasion of Iraq and he resisted them and convinced POTUS that their objectives have been met. From what I have read about him, he has always put service first and for him to serve over 35 years in the armed forces of a country that did not fully accept him, I find it completely admirable.

I couldn't do it, I was well on track to being promoted to E-9 until the 2008 Presidential campaign and my eyes were truly open to what this country thinks of people who look like me. The talk between some of the people I considered friends became so ignorant, until then, I thought that as long as I worked hard and was good at my job nothing else would matter, it became clear to me that was very a naïve mindset. I then began to look around and realize that many of the black SNCO's were move to more support positions outside of leadership, the ones who remained in those leadership positions had to fight to do so!

After listening to all the negative whispers about Obama and being told that I would be moved to back-shop (a support position) once I returned from special duty (USAF 1st Sgt), I bailed out!

First, thank you for your service.
Second, sorry that things spiraled out that way for your career.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

First, thank you for your service.
Second, sorry that things spiraled out that way for your career.

I wouldn't describe it as a spiral, I was proud of my service and I retired at the top of my game. I just became less motivated to continue giving so much of myself to a country where a good portion of it sees me as an unwelcomed house guest. That being said, I still have my U.S. Flag hanging and I'll still wear my uniform with pride in the appropriate situation.

That is why I have the utmost respect for what Powell accomplished, hell, that dude had his 1st star when I was 6 years old and he did that during a time when it was much, much tougher than what I had.

 

[Paul]

I wouldn't describe it as a spiral, I was proud of my service and I retired at the top of my game. I just became less motivated to continue giving so much of myself to a country where a good portion of it sees me as an unwelcomed house guest. That being said, I still have my U.S. Flag hanging and I'll still wear my uniform with pride in the appropriate situation.

That is why I have the utmost respect for what Powell accomplished, hell, that dude had his 1st star when I was 6 years old and he did that during a time when it was much, much tougher than what I had.

Powell was of Jamaican ancestry and they tend to see America in a different light when compared to other American POC. They see positivity where others see negativity.

 

[el caliente]

Powell was of Jamaican ancestry and they tend to see America in a different light when compared to other American POC. They see positivity where others see negativity.

As a Cuban American I get this all to well (we aren’t viewed in the same light as Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, etc.), so him being of Jamaican parents and not seeing things from the same perspective as a black person born and raised here in the US is possibly different. Freedoms are possibly viewed a bit differently depending on who bore you.

As an aside, and I don’t mean to derail this conversation, but as someone that isn’t black, and one trying to rub as few people the wrong way as possible, should black people be referred to as POC, black, African American, etc.? I ask partially because yesterday during a client meeting the client was adamant about not being called African American “I didn’t come from Africa, and I have never visited that continent.” Meanwhile our admin told us a few months back that “I am not a person of color. Rafael and I both fall under the POC umbrella, but I am black.” So knowing that 1 or 2 people don’t speak for an entire population (but trying to be aware), what is the least offensive term used to describe brothers and sisters of color.

 

[Paul]

As a Cuban American I get this all to well (we aren’t viewed in the same light as Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, etc.), so him being of Jamaican parents and not seeing things from the same perspective as a black person born and raised here in the US is possibly different. Freedoms are possibly viewed a bit differently depending on who bore you.

As an aside, and I don’t mean to derail this conversation, but as someone that isn’t black, and one trying to rub as few people the wrong way as possible, should black people be referred to as POC, black, African American, etc.? I ask partially because yesterday during a client meeting the client was adamant about not being called African American “I didn’t come from Africa, and I have never visited that continent.” Meanwhile our admin told us a few months back that “I am not a person of color. Rafael and I both fall under the POC umbrella, but I am black.” So knowing that 1 or 2 people don’t speak for an entire population (but trying to be aware), what is the least offensive term used to describe brothers and sisters of color.

I apologize for using the term POC. At the onset I thought it could be a derogatory term as this was the way American blacks were described in the Jim Crow era. It was used to label bathrooms and water fountains. I hesitate to use the term, it bothers me. However, it seems some people in America push this term to describe anyone that is not a person of European ancestry. I will not use the term again.

I once saw Van Jones describe a Korean woman as a POC and I was enthralled as her skin was extremely fair.

In the end it is basic race ID politics and a way to find allies to combat Americans of European heritage (they are seen as the enemy). I have said at nauseam that I like the way the French handle this. Over there everybody is French and they do not classify people according to skin tone or DNA. I believe Cuba handles this issue in the same manner.

 

[Saintamaniac]

As an aside, and I don’t mean to derail this conversation, but as someone that isn’t black, and one trying to rub as few people the wrong way as possible, should black people be referred to as POC, black, African American, etc.? I ask partially because yesterday during a client meeting the client was adamant about not being called African American “I didn’t come from Africa, and I have never visited that continent.” Meanwhile our admin told us a few months back that “I am not a person of color. Rafael and I both fall under the POC umbrella, but I am black.” So knowing that 1 or 2 people don’t speak for an entire population (but trying to be aware), what is the least offensive term used to describe brothers and sisters of color.

This is trickier than what it really should be. Unless it's absolutely necessary to delineate race, leave it out. If for some reason it is necessary, I'm partial to black guy, black dude or black man. I really don't have a problem with African American.

Now, on the occasion that I might be being an butt crevasse, do not call me a black butt crevasse. Assholery has no color. If I'm being a bastage about something, don't call me a black bastage. Simply bastage will do.

The thing is, some people think, unconsciously or not, that all black people or African Americans think or feel the same way about these issues. We do not. It's going to depend on the person. I say, unless it's absolutely necessary, refer to us (blacks) in the same manner you would refer to a person that is not black.

 

[Paul]

This is trickier than what it really should be. Unless it's absolutely necessary to delineate race, leave it out. If for some reason it is necessary, I'm partial to black guy, black dude or black man. I really don't have a problem with African American.

Now, on the occasion that I might be being an butt crevasse, do not call me a black butt crevasse. Assholery has no color. If I'm being a bastage about something, don't call me a black bastage. Simply bastage will do.

The thing is, some people think, unconsciously or not, that all black people or African Americans think or feel the same way about these issues. We do not. It's going to depend on the person. I say, unless it's absolutely necessary, refer to us (blacks) in the same manner you would refer to a person that is not black.

Here is a young lady from Jamaica that is baffled by American obsession of race ID politics.


For the record I believe race ID politics and the concept of classifying people according to skin tone and DNA was the creation of slave masters in the USA. Somehow America at large has adopted this.

When Harvard professor Gates visited Cuba he was baffled because Cubans referred them selves as Cubans and nothing else regardless of skin tone.

 

[RobF]

When Harvard professor Gates visited Cuba he was baffled because Cubans referred them selves as Cubans and nothing else regardless of skin tone.

It has little to do with Colin Powell, but anyway, no. Whether it's intentional or not, you have got to stop misrepresenting everything under the sun in your pursuit of a fantasy of a race-blind nationalist utopia.

And I'm curious as to where you got this idea about Gates in the first place, because there's no way you could have read his work or watched the documentary and got the idea that this is something that supports the notion of race-blind nationalism as being effective.

Anyway, here is Henry Louis Gates Jr writing on his visit to Cuba:

One-on-One With Afro-Cubans: What It Means to Be Black in Cuba

Editor’s note: With the U.S. Embassy reopening in Havana on July 20, The Root is giving some insight and perspective into the lives of Afro-Cubans who suffer discrimination and economic distress, even in the midst of the Cuban revolution that Fidel Castro declared put an end to racism. Harvard...

www.theroot.com

Here is an extract, about why he was actually baffled:

I must confess that I was baffled. I saw segregation everywhere around me. But Cubans didn’t seem to blame racism. I saw a wide gap between rich and poor, and so many poor seemed to have brown faces. But the black Cubans I had interviewed so far insisted that each individual’s success (or lack thereof) was his or her own responsibility.​

​

I told Tomás Fernández Robaina about my conversations with Rafael Muñoz Portela, Yoxander Oritz Matos, and Omar Linares. It seemed like cubanidad supersedes race, I told him, and that even Afro-Cubans believe there is no racism.​

​

“I class myself as an ordinary Cuban,” he told me. “But speaking as a black Cuban, I also know, deep down, that the first thing people see is that I’m black, not that I’m Cuban. The police always remind me of that first and foremost.”​

​

“So you believe Afro-Cubans do face racism?” I asked.​

​

“All Cubans, whether they are aware of it or not, have been a victim of racism,” he responded, without skipping a beat. “Prejudice and humiliation make some people reject the fact that they are black. Here in Cuba, there are many different ways of referring to the racial category of black—there are forty-four different ways, in fact.”​

​

He was baffled because he could see segregation everywhere around him, but some of the people he interviewed seemed blind to it. He wasn't baffled just because it "seemed like cubanidad supersedes race", he was baffled because they acted like that even though it plainly wasn't the case. And it became very apparent that the 'blindness' was surface only, and the reality was that race was very much seen.

And that's because the notion that you're pushing, which is, at its heart, that being blind to something makes it disappear, is naive and wrong.

As Devo put it, "If you cannot see it you think it's not there, it doesn't work that way."

So if you could knock it off, that'd be appreciated. I have better things to do than to constantly have to point out that you haven't understood the thing you're citing.

 

[Paul]

It has little to do with Colin Powell, but anyway, no. Whether it's intentional or not, you have got to stop misrepresenting everything under the sun in your pursuit of a fantasy of a race-blind nationalist utopia.

And I'm curious as to where you got this idea about Gates in the first place, because there's no way you could have read his work or watched the documentary and got the idea that this is something that supports the notion of race-blind nationalism as being effective.

Anyway, here is Henry Louis Gates Jr writing on his visit to Cuba:

One-on-One With Afro-Cubans: What It Means to Be Black in Cuba

Editor’s note: With the U.S. Embassy reopening in Havana on July 20, The Root is giving some insight and perspective into the lives of Afro-Cubans who suffer discrimination and economic distress, even in the midst of the Cuban revolution that Fidel Castro declared put an end to racism. Harvard...

www.theroot.com

Here is an extract, about why he was actually baffled:

I must confess that I was baffled. I saw segregation everywhere around me. But Cubans didn’t seem to blame racism. I saw a wide gap between rich and poor, and so many poor seemed to have brown faces. But the black Cubans I had interviewed so far insisted that each individual’s success (or lack thereof) was his or her own responsibility.​

​

I told Tomás Fernández Robaina about my conversations with Rafael Muñoz Portela, Yoxander Oritz Matos, and Omar Linares. It seemed like cubanidad supersedes race, I told him, and that even Afro-Cubans believe there is no racism.​

​

“I class myself as an ordinary Cuban,” he told me. “But speaking as a black Cuban, I also know, deep down, that the first thing people see is that I’m black, not that I’m Cuban. The police always remind me of that first and foremost.”​

​

“So you believe Afro-Cubans do face racism?” I asked.​

​

“All Cubans, whether they are aware of it or not, have been a victim of racism,” he responded, without skipping a beat. “Prejudice and humiliation make some people reject the fact that they are black. Here in Cuba, there are many different ways of referring to the racial category of black—there are forty-four different ways, in fact.”​

​

He was baffled because he could see segregation everywhere around him, but some of the people he interviewed seemed blind to it. He wasn't baffled just because it "seemed like cubanidad supersedes race", he was baffled because they acted like that even though it plainly wasn't the case. And it became very apparent that the 'blindness' was surface only, and the reality was that race was very much seen.

And that's because the notion that you're pushing, which is, at its heart, that being blind to something makes it disappear, is naive and wrong.

As Devo put it, "If you cannot see it you think it's not there, it doesn't work that way."

So if you could knock it off, that'd be appreciated. I have better things to do than to constantly have to point out that you haven't understood the thing you're citing.

Those that follow the religion of anti-racism always say there is racism in nations that do not use skin color or DNA to classify or categorize its citizens. Yes, that is correct, racism is universal and present in nations that preach color blindness.

The question that begs an answer is whether racism is less in nations that preach race identity politics and classification of citizens according to DNA and skin color. Is it justified to classify and categorize people according to genotype and skin color? I would think that is the very essence of racism. America has more racial classifications than the old Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

Which nation is more racist? Cuba or America?

Castro tried to have a society where everybody was equal, however, this does not even work in socialist nations. It does not work because humans exist in a spectrum of competence and talent. No system can alter that. Segregation in is Cuba is self segregation. Classifying people according to skin color will make segregation even worse.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Those that follow the religion of anti-racism always say there is racism in nations that do not use skin color or DNA to classify or categorize its citizens. Yes, that is correct, racism is universal and present in nations that preach color blindness.

The question that begs an answer is whether racism less in nations that preach race identity politics and classification of citizens according to DNA and skin color. Is it justified to classify and categorize people according to genotype and skin color? I would think that is the very essence of racism. America has more classifications than the old Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

Which nation is more racist? Cuba or America?

Castro tried to have a society where everybody was equal, however, this does not even work in socialist nations. It does not work because humans exist in a spectrum of competence and talent. No system cam alter that. Segregation in is Cuba is self segregation. Classifying peiople according to skin color will make segregation even worse.

This is a really long-winded way of saying, "I was completely wrong, Rob. Thank you for showing me that I don't have a gosh darned clue what I am talking about."

As to the bolded part... this may come as a shock, but you're completely wrong here as well.

 

[Paul]

This is a really long-winded way of saying, "I was completely wrong, Rob. Thank you for showing me that I don't have a gosh darned clue what I am talking about."

As to the bolded part... this may come as a shock, but you're completely wrong here as well.

CM: Do you have an argument of your own?

Robf stated that there is racism in Cuba as a winning card for the argument. I never said there is no racism in Cuba. I simply stated in Cuba everybody is Cuban and people are not classified by skin color. Can you add anything to the conversation? I know you are rooting for your comrade, but I wonder if you can add your opinion.
Thanks

 

[MT15]

Nobody that I’m aware of is using DNA to classify people as of a certain race. We have put up scientific explanations on this board before that say there is less difference genetically between Europeans and Africans than between individuals of other species, I believe the example given was between individual penguins. Individual penguins have greater genetic variability than do any members of the human race.

It was part of the discussion where someone mistakenly said that different races of human beings were sub-species. They were once thought to be so, but they are not. There is almost no genetic difference between members of the human race. Race as used around the world is a social construct.

 

[RobF]

Those that follow the religion of anti-racism always say there is racism in nations that do not use skin color or DNA to classify or categorize its citizens. Yes, that is correct, racism is universal and present in nations that preach color blindness.

The question that begs an answer is whether racism less in nations that preach race identity politics and classification of citizens according to DNA and skin color. Is it justified to classify and categorize people according to genotype and skin color? I would think that is the very essence of racism. America has more racial classifications than the old Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

Literally just linked to an article - from the professor you referred to - that starts by asking someone how their ID card classifies them (and it classified them as white), repeatedly discusses the different ways people are classified by skin colour in Cuba, and quoted someone saying "in Cuba, there are many different ways of referring to the racial category of black—there are forty-four different ways, in fact," Paul.

And recognising that racial categories exist culturally is not racist. They do exist. You can argue it would be nice if they didn't, but they do. Recognising they do exist allows us to understand the impact of different things on different people though, enabling us to understand what's happening and why, and attempt to actually engage with it and improve matters.

Whereas pretending they don't exist doesn't make them go away, as can be seen in France, Japan, Cuba, or whichever place you're going to move onto next. It's a fantasy.

I'll also note it's a fantasy beloved of bigots who would love nothing more than for everyone to stop talking about racism, pretend it's gone away, and just let them carry on with it.

Castro tried to have a society where everybody was equal, however, this does not even work in socialist nations. It does not work because humans exist in a spectrum of competence and talent. No system can alter that. Segregation in is Cuba is self segregation. Classifying people according to skin color will make segregation even worse.

And here's the thing, again. We're talking about unequal outcomes between groups here, specifically, racial groups.

And you're, again, saying, "It does not work because humans exist in a spectrum of competence and talent."

And in that context, there are only two possibilities: you're arguing the unequal outcomes between those racial groups exist because one group is more towards one end of the 'spectrum of competence and talent' and others are more at the other end, or, you think that while a spectrum exists, racial group has no bearing on where anyone is on it, in which case it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about since it would have no bearing whatsoever on unequal outcomes between racial groups.

So to put it bluntly, you're either being explicitly racist, or you're babbling incoherently. So which is it? Be really specific.

 

[Paul]

Nobody that I’m aware of is using DNA to classify people as of a certain race.

For the love of God! You guys understand figures of speech. They do not use DNA, they use the surrogate of DNA which is physical appearance.

We have put up scientific explanations on this board before that say there is less difference genetically between Europeans and Africans than between individuals of other species, I believe the example given was between individual penguins. Individual penguins have greater genetic variability than do any members of the human race.

Yawn, that is well known. Preaching to the choir!

It was part of the discussion where someone mistakenly said that different races of human beings were sub-species. They were once thought to be so, but they are not. There is almost no genetic difference between members of the human race. Race as used around the world is a social construct.

I agree! You are preaching to the choir. The Cubas got it right and somehow Americans have it wrong.

 

[MT15]

DNA is just not the right word to use to substitute for skin color, though. If you mean skin color, just say it.

So, Paul, 44 different descriptors for the black race, as they have in Cuba, is the right way? They do handle race a bit differently than the US in some ways, but I am not convinced it’s better.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

CM: Do you have an argument of your own?

Robf stated that there is racism in Cuba as a winning card for the argument. I never said there is no racism in Cuba. I simply stated in Cuba everybody is Cuban and people are not classified by skin color. Can you add anything to the conversation? I know you are rooting for your comrade, but I wonder if you can add your opinion.
Thanks

I don't know, man... Rob did a pretty good job of exposing you as an intellectual fraud. I don't know if me kicking you in the ribs while you're down is going to help.