Capitalism (2 Viewers)

[Huntn]

Capitalism- good or bad?

This is not my answer that it is bad per se, but the following is what triggered this thread. When I think of a country, I think of it’s citizens as being members of Team USA, Team Canada, or Team UK, etc, and with companies, corporations, I see issues where the emphasis is on profits, not my team. For corporations, the team is not my country, but my small group of capital collectors, and one thing that irritates me constantly is when I call a company, say a U.S. based insurance company and I end up talking to someone in India, or the Philippines. Hey profits up, but citizens (team members) are disenfranchised, the income levels of the home country is undermined, millions of jobs exported to cheap labor locations. I’ve witnessed this in manufacturing for at least the last 30-40 years. When it comes to profits there is no National loyalty. As I said, the team is the corporation, and sometimes, it’s not even the people working locally, some of those like assembly line workers are viewed as drains on the bottom line. Thoughts?

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

I don't know why some of y'all waste your time typing/replying to that person. It's not like anyone will ever get through to someone that dense

Because it's not about getting through to Sendai, just like it's not about getting through to us for Sendai.

It's all about getting through to everyone else who's reading. You don't write to people who act the Sendai does, you write to all of the other people who are reading.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Except there are no wealth taxes. Only taxes on income.

Most important is that everyone everywhere in the world should pay taxes based on wealth (anything of monetary value owned by an individual) instead of income. That's the only equitable way to tax people. Taxing income is a scheme to allow the wealthy to avoid paying their fair share for the cost of providing everything that society provides and that they rely on to amass their wealth. Without what society provides, they'd have very little to nothing.

Do you have a source for claiming that Denmark doesn't tax increases in asset value unless those assets are liquidated/cashed in/realized? You don't live in Denmark, at least you claim you don't live in Denmark, so how is it that you know what they do and don't tax?

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Not much they can do on stock options. Straight up income. No deferrals. No hiding. The IRS has their hand out the moment the options are exercised.

You're mixing up "claim as income" with "pay taxes on that income." Those aren't the same things. The earnings are included in the AGI calculation, but so are all deductions. If they claim enough itemized deductions they can reduce their tax liability on that income to zero and not have to pay a single dollar on it. The top 10% do it a lot.

HR executive compensation quickly sells off stock to cover the withholding which is usually 37-42%. This is where a substantial amount of that 72% tax revenue originates. It’s why corporate stock buybacks contribute heavily to tax revenues. Those buybacks become options.

Even if money is withheld at time of sell, that's just like withholding from a pay check. If the person who sells the stocks claims enough deductions to get their tax liability on the income from the stock sell down to zero, then they get a full refund of all income tax withholdings, so they aren't actually paying that money in taxes. Their money is just temporarily held by the IRS until it's refund back to them.

 

[TampaJoe]

This is from the notes about the data.

"Source: IRS, “SOI tax stats - individual statistical tables by tax rate and income percentile,” https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-...ical-tables-by-tax-rate-and-income-percentile."​

​

Your source used the IRS's SOI Tax Stats for 2022 for their data. That was before the Trump tax cuts which heavily favors the top 10%.

The tax data is based on what tax forms showed as taxes due. It does take into account actual taxes paid. We know that some in the top 10% have gotten away with not paying their taxes in full, some have even not paid anything at all. Trump recently pardoned wealthy tax evaders. The wealthy can much more easily negotiate a settlement to pay a lower tax. Anyone can try, but with wealth comes the privilege of more success.

We don't know how much any bracket actually pays in taxes. The IRS has that data, but I've never seen them provide it. I've looked for it several times through the years, but haven't been able to find it. It could very well be out there and I just haven't found it. I can only think of one reason why the IRS wouldn't make that information available and easy to find, they don't want the 90% to know how little the 10% actually pay in taxes.

Another big clue goes all the way back to the early 80's. The top 10% has been complaining for decades that they pay a really high percentage of their income in taxes, but they have loudly shouted down every proposal of flat tax of 20% or less.

If the top 10% were truly paying a really high percentage of their income in taxes, why on earth would they shut down every single proposal of a flat income tax of 20% or less of their income in taxes?

If any conservative offered up such a theory you would demand proof. Actual evidence.

Wealth taxes are simply impractical. If the country requires more revenue, you can raise income taxes, cut expenses, grow the economy or print money. Or any combination of the above. All you need is legislation. You stand a better chance raising tax rates or limiting deductions over establishing a wealth tax.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Hiding income? Are you implying that there is a widespread problem of wealthy people illegally hiding their income?

No, I wasn't implying it. I very clearly said they are definitely doing it. You do realize that your man Trump has recently pardon a few wealthy people for tax evasion? Tax evasion among the top 10% is common. When they do get caught, most of the time they send in an army of tax lawyers who get their original tax liability reduced, so even when they get caught evading, a lot of them end up paying less than there full tax bill. You and I can't get away with that, but too many of the people in the top 10% can and do.

As far as loopholes are concerned, the government, democrats and republicans create these loopholes to encourage certain types of behavior. For instance, there are numerous tax preferences items that defer tax liability for investments in real estate. Why? We like real estate in this country and encourage investment in real estate as it is one of the drivers in our economy.

That's a myth. The tax loopholes have never been shown to "trickle" taxes back into the income as investments or in any other way. The tax loopholes are to allow the top 10% to keep more money for themselves while at the same time they take more money from us. Trickle down has never worked and made the bottom 90% better off. They have always made thing worse for the bottom 90%.

We encourage charitable giving.

Yes and no. We encourage honest charitable spending by the bottom 90%, so we can give more tax breaks to the upper 10%. The more we spend to help each other out, then the more the government saves and they give those savings to the top 10% in the form of tax breaks and corporate welfare which is much higher than individual welfare.

We encourage savings and investment.

You ever ask yourself why we encourage savings? Because it gives the wealthy bankers more money to lend for profits from loans, profits that are rarely used to benefit the bottom 90%. For over 60 years, money has been sucked up from the bottom 90% by the top 10%. If giving wealthy people more money made us all better off then the wealth gap wouldn't be getting so lopsided at an constantly accelerating pace.

We do all this via the tax code.

Yes, the tax code is one of the tools used to take more and more wealth/money from the bottom 90% to give it to the top 10%.

As has been stated, high income/high net worth folks already pay the majority of income tax in this country.

For years I've looked for data that shows how much the top 10% pay. I have never been able to find that data. The data that you are referring to is only what their tax filing says they a supposed to pay.

Riddle me this. If the high income earnings pay such a high percentage in taxes, why are they always the first in line to shut down all of the proposals to switch to a flat tax system of 20% or less? Think about it. The only reason they'd be opposed to paying a flat tax of 20% of their income is because they currently pay less than 20%.

Warren Buffet, the god of the American capitalists, has said on many occasions that he pays a lower percentage in income taxes than his middle class secretary pays on hers. Warren Buffet has also said on many occasions that class warfare is happening and his side is winning.

It is a fair question to consider whether there can be improvements and simplification.

The top 10% fight every attempt to simplify the tax code. The only improvements they allow is those that let them nothing or next to nothing in taxes. If the top 10% actually paid a fair and equitable share of taxes, we could take care of a lot more people who need help and pay down our debt at the same time. Anyone tell you otherwise is either lying to you or believes the lies they were told.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

We don’t do wealth taxes in the US.

But we absolutely should. We should switch from income tax to wealth tax. That's a much more fair and equitable system and would create a much healthier and better society to live in and raise our children in.

That would involve taxing unrealized gains which opens up a whole different set of problems when it comes to valuation of various assets and tracking asset basis over time.

It wouldn't be a problem at all. Ask yourself, "who told me it would be a problem to do that?" You know the fox would tell you it's a problem to lock the door to the hen house/chicken coop, right?

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

The constitution protects against a wealth tax. You want a wealth tax get an amendment.

"Whoomp, there it is! Whoomp! Shaka-laka-shaka-laka shaka-laka shaka..."

I just told you that the top 10% rushed to get the Sixteen Amendment done so they wouldn't be taxed on their wealth and you just beautifully summed up their greedy, selfish, hoarding, lowdown, and dirty reason for doing it.

They rammed through an amendment to make other taxes constitutional to make it harder to pass an amendment allowing taxes on their wealth. You were all too eager to say "so take that" on their behalf. The screwed over standing up for, not to, the people that screw them over is one of the most dysfunctional psychological dynamics there is. It's the same dysfunctional dynamic as Stockholm syndrome.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

If any conservative offered up such a theory you would demand proof. Actual evidence.

Here's proof that a wealthy person evaded taxes and that Trump pardoned them. "Conservatives," as you say, love tip of the iceberg theories to believe that where there's one there's many and slippery slopes.

Who are Todd and Julie Chrisley? What to know about Trump's pardon of couple convicted of fraud.

Reality TV stars Todd and Julie Chrisley "were given pretty harsh treatment," President Trump said on Tuesday.

www.cbsnews.com

What other things do you want proof of? Please only ask for the same standards of proof that you require for the things you believe.

Wealth taxes are simply impractical.

Why are they impractical and who told you they are? Wealth tax can be as easy as income tax. Show me what you think is impractical and how show you how easily practical it is.

 

[Sendai]

This is from the notes about the data.

"Source: IRS, “SOI tax stats - individual statistical tables by tax rate and income percentile,” https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-...ical-tables-by-tax-rate-and-income-percentile."​

​

Your source used the IRS's SOI Tax Stats for 2022 for their data. That was before the Trump tax cuts which heavily favors the top 10%.

The tax data is based on what tax forms showed as taxes due. It does take into account actual taxes paid. We know that some in the top 10% have gotten away with not paying their taxes in full, some have even not paid anything at all. Trump recently pardoned wealthy tax evaders. The wealthy can much more easily negotiate a settlement to pay a lower tax. Anyone can try, but with wealth comes the privilege of more success.

We don't know how much any bracket actually pays in taxes. The IRS has that data, but I've never seen them provide it. I've looked for it several times through the years, but haven't been able to find it. It could very well be out there and I just haven't found it. I can only think of one reason why the IRS wouldn't make that information available and easy to find, they don't want the 90% to know how little the 10% actually pay in taxes.

Another big clue goes all the way back to the early 80's. The top 10% has been complaining for decades that they pay a really high percentage of their income in taxes, but they have loudly shouted down every proposal of flat tax of 20% or less.

If the top 10% were truly paying a really high percentage of their income in taxes, why on earth would they shut down every single proposal of a flat income tax of 20% or less of their income in taxes?

The BBB is largely a bill that simply makes the 2017 tax rates permanent. So the 2022 data is valid into the future.

 

[zztop]

It's all about getting through to everyone else who's reading.

Everyone else? On this forum? You mean the ones who are already replying to him? (which would be everyone else besides him) That's about 90% of this thriving community, who already know. Those 'guests' are never going to participate (and I am not entirely sure they are anything but bots) - so it's a huge waste of time

 

[Dragon]

Most important is that everyone everywhere in the world should pay taxes based on wealth (anything of monetary value owned by an individual) instead of income. That's the only equitable way to tax people. Taxing income is a scheme to allow the wealthy to avoid paying their fair share for the cost of providing everything that society provides and that they rely on to amass their wealth. Without what society provides, they'd have very little to nothing.

Do you have a source for claiming that Denmark doesn't tax increases in asset value unless those assets are liquidated/cashed in/realized? You don't live in Denmark, at least you claim you don't live in Denmark, so how is it that you know what they do and don't tax?

Denmark and EU has strong economic laws, which is part of the reason why doing your taxes usually takes 2 minutes online.

All Employers, financial institutions - banks, insurrance and investment companies are obligated BY LAW to report all income, interests (positive and negative) and stock market assets and trades (Loss and gain of value) as well as total assets to the national tax authorities. When I get my tax form - all those numbers are already there so only minor stuff needs to be reported - like number of days commuting to work (for a tax deduction) and some charitable contributions if they are missing on the form. That information is reported across borders as well so when I did some part time work for a german company they still reported my salary to the Danish taxing authority.

All this makes it almost impossible to cheat on your taxes

 

[Huntn]

You are correct in that you and I don’t agree on government and economics. Respectfully. I don’t see where any government that places the kind of limitations you describe can call itself a free country. What you describe crosses the line between individual liberty and authoritarianism IMO. The government and politicians become the monarchs. They explain it to you claiming it’s for your own good or for the collective good. I believe that is precisely the reason our Constitution was written in such a way to limit the power of the central government.

It amazes me that people on this board complain regularly about the dysfunction in our government and at the same time seek to give that same dysfunctional government more authority and power over daily life. What will destroy us is giving up more and more of our individual liberties to the government.

JMHO

You are an anarchist. You need to find a small group of like minded individuals who want to call the shots as you do.
What you may not understand is that in a large society, the definition of freedom comes within caveats. There is no such thing as complete freedom. You usually can’t blair your music at night, or drive recklessly, etc.

What you have or should have is group freedom. The group, by group consensus of the majority sometimes called the tyranny of the majority, defines our communal limits for the common good. My opinion, one single individual in a society should not control the wealth of 10k+ people under any circumstance especially while others go hungry or live on the street, if it can be helped, and it can be helped. Not everything should be monetized, nor should citizens be disenfranchised to make others wealthy. You can be the smartest, most valuable person in a society, and you should not feel the need to be a glutton, ie the size of your pile of gold. The wealth of your life if measured in excessive material possessions is a fail.

 

[Huntn]

I don't know why some of y'all waste your time typing/replying to that person. It's not like anyone will ever get through to someone that dense

Yep, distraction, conflagration, misrepresentation, excuse making, deception, self serving.

 

[Huntn]

Except there are no wealth taxes. Only taxes on income.

It’s vital there should be, or at a minimum, wealth should be factored into the equation.

 

[Huntn]

Hopefully in before the "government can't tell me what I can't and can't have" nonsense rebuttal.

The people who make that argument fully support the government forcefully going onto and into a person's property to forcibly remove their possessions if they judge that person to be hoarding. So they don't honestly have an issue with the government telling people what they can and can't have. Hoarding wealth is hoarding and wealth hording is much more detrimental and dangerous to a hell of a lot more people than a person hoarding things on and in their personal property.

Capitalism is an inherent system of exploitation. Exploitation always works in one direction only, the strong prey on the vulnerable. That's inherently immoral. It's also why the wealthy have brainwashed society to accept restrictions and regulations on the non-wealthy as "it has to be done," while rejecting the same restrictions and regulations on the wealthy as being "disastrous for everyone." It wouldn't be disastrous for anyone, including the wealthy. The wealth cap could be set at $100m and things would be a whole lot better.

I think the best thing to do would be to limit it to a certain factor tied to average incomes in a way that wouldn't allow manipulating the averages in an inequitable way, instead of setting it an arbitrary number. If you want to raise the wealth cap to hoard more wealth, then you have to make everyone proportionally more prosperous. Basically, if you want a 10% raise in the wealth cap, then everyone else also has to get a 10% raise in income. I don't think anyone should have over 100 times more wealth than anyone else.

At a party full of children, who would let any child at the party have 100 times more cookies and cake than any other child at the party?

I believe that Capitalism can only avoid the End Game, which we are on the verge of implosion by having a regalatory government not infiltrated by Capitalists who recognize its dangers, who prevent the disenfranchisement of citizens though exportation of jobs, and prevents the excesses we are witnessing today. Pick a number, above a certain accumulation of wealth, tax needs to be 95%ish. The problem? We’re a bunch of sheep, herded waiting in line to be sheared, mostly in my estimation because although we live in society, we’re too self centered by nature.

 

[Huntn]

I don’t think it’s wise to take Elon’s word for anything. He is a known compulsive liar who hardly ever tells the truth when he can lie to make himself or his companies look good. It’s been documented for years.

Musk Trump birds of a feather in multiple ways.

 

[efil4]

Options are straight up income. When options are exercised it’s the full value of the stock. It’s treated as regular income. Capital Gains don’t apply.

The "spread" is. Thats the difference of current stock price vs option price when exercised.

Not the full value of stock.

 

[TampaJoe]

You are an anarchist. You need to find a small group of like minded individuals who want to call the shots as you do.
What you may not understand is that in a large society, the definition of freedom comes within caveats. There is no such thing as complete freedom. You usually can’t blair your music at night, or drive recklessly, etc.

What you have or should have is group freedom. The group, by group consensus of the majority sometimes called the tyranny of the majority, defines our communal limits for the common good. My opinion, one single individual in a society should not control the wealth of 10k+ people under any circumstance especially while others go hungry or live on the street, if it can be helped, and it can be helped. Not everything should be monetized, nor should citizens be disenfranchised to make others wealthy. You can be the smartest, most valuable person in a society, and you should not feel the need to be a glutton, ie the size of your pile of gold. The wealth of your life if measured in excessive material possessions is a fail.

To you I may seem to be an anarchist. I can assure you I am not. Nor were the founders. But in their wisdom, they designed a constitution that protected the individual and minorities from the tyranny of the majority. But if you seek to expand those limitations placed by them under the constitution and its amendments, there is a process for that. It requires bipartisan agreement and agreement among the states. That is hard to come by these days as Republicans and Democrats war among themselves.