Capitalism (2 Viewers)

[Huntn]

Capitalism- good or bad?

This is not my answer that it is bad per se, but the following is what triggered this thread. When I think of a country, I think of it’s citizens as being members of Team USA, Team Canada, or Team UK, etc, and with companies, corporations, I see issues where the emphasis is on profits, not my team. For corporations, the team is not my country, but my small group of capital collectors, and one thing that irritates me constantly is when I call a company, say a U.S. based insurance company and I end up talking to someone in India, or the Philippines. Hey profits up, but citizens (team members) are disenfranchised, the income levels of the home country is undermined, millions of jobs exported to cheap labor locations. I’ve witnessed this in manufacturing for at least the last 30-40 years. When it comes to profits there is no National loyalty. As I said, the team is the corporation, and sometimes, it’s not even the people working locally, some of those like assembly line workers are viewed as drains on the bottom line. Thoughts?

 

[MT15]

When I refer to government at the federal level it is government as a whole. Democrats, republicans and independents. Elected, appointed, and employed. All of it. It either works as a whole or it does not. Don’t get me wrong.

Don’t get me wrong. Government has a role to play. You mentioned regulation. Reasonable prudent regulation is needed and is provided for in the Constitution. I have no issue with that as long as government stays in its lane. Those lanes are defined in the Constitution and its amendments.

So if you are asking me, I believe. In limited federal government as defined in the Constitution. It doesn’t matter which party happens to temporarily hold the various leadership positions.

And lastly, most laws and regulations impact individuals. That’s why they are there after all. Whether one “likes” them or not depends on who is impacted. Just because you may not care about the other side doesn’t mean the law or regulation is just of fair.

You manage to never acknowledge the individual liberties that are being taken away by the GOP. Well, you just shrug it away - with “all laws regulate individuals”. Yes, but most laws do not get into personal rights like what the GOP is doing now.

So do you agree with them? The ones I mentioned:

Telling universities which courses they can and cannot offer.
Telling libraries which books they can and cannot stock.
Telling parents which books their children can or cannot read.
Telling corporations how they must conduct their new employee orientations and how they must conduct their hiring.
Regulating women’s bodies and medical care by banning certain procedures even if they are needed for the woman’s safety.
Telling parents which medical treatments they can and cannot use for the good of their children.

Do these laws fall under your idea of personal freedom?

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

So the U S tax structure where the top 10% earners pay 72% of the income taxes is on top of it’s game.

What percentage of total private wealth does that 10% own? Let me help you with that. This is from 2nd Quarter 2024. The bottom 90% (red and green slices) owned 33.3% of wealth while the top 10% (all the other slices) owned 66.7% of wealth. Keep in mind that wealthy people hide more wealth than non-wealthy people do. Based on historical trends, the top 10% probably own a greater share of wealth now.

Wealth distribution U.S. 2024| Statista

In the first quarter of 2024, almost two-thirds percent of the total wealth in the United States was owned by the top 10 percent of earners.

www.statista.com

 

[Sendai]

What percentage of total private wealth does that 10% own? Let me help you with that. This is from 2nd Quarter 2024. The bottom 90% (red and green slices) owned 33.3% of wealth while the top 10% (all the other slices) owned 66.7% of wealth. Keep in mind that wealthy people hide more wealth than non-wealthy people do. Based on historical trends, the top 10% probably own a greater share of wealth now.

Wealth distribution U.S. 2024| Statista

In the first quarter of 2024, almost two-thirds percent of the total wealth in the United States was owned by the top 10 percent of earners.

www.statista.com

Well, then the top 10% paying 72% of income taxes is spot on.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Well, then the top 10% paying 72% of income taxes is spot on.

Only if both of these are true:

• Only if they aren't hiding a good chunk of their wealth. There's a lot evidence and proof that wealthy people hide big chunks of their wealth.
• They are actually paying 72%. What the tax table shows they should be paying is rarely what they actually pay. They usually use the loopholes that were intentionally created for them to avoid paying as much as they should and often nothing at all.

I think there's a very good chance the pay much less of percentage of taxes, than they have a percentage of ownership of wealth.

 

[Sendai]

Only if both of these are true:

• Only if they aren't hiding a good chunk of their wealth. There's a lot evidence and proof that wealthy people hide big chunks of their wealth.
• They are actually paying 72%. What the tax table shows they should be paying is rarely what they actually pay. They usually use the loopholes that were intentionally created for them to avoid paying as much as they should and often nothing at all.

I think there's a very good chance the pay much less of percentage of taxes, than they have a percentage of ownership of wealth.

No. Those two statements have nothing to do with the top 10% of earners paying 72% of income taxes. It does make sense that the top 10% earners accumulate 67% of wealth. They have capital. And wealth isn’t taxed. It’s really quite simple. The top 10% income earners pay 72% of the income taxes based on taxable income.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

No. Those two statements have nothing to do with the top 10% of earners paying 72% of income taxes.

The top 10% hiding some of their wealth and/or not actually paying 72% of income taxes has everything to do with whether not the top 10% are actually paying the same amount in taxes as they are benefiting from everything our soceity provides them so that they can have that wealth.

Without what we provide them as a society, they don't have that wealth, so the fair system is that everybody pitches in to pay for the cost of what society provides at the same proportion they benefit from what society provides.

That's exactly what Dragon said that you chimed in on.

And wealth isn’t taxed.

We are saying it should be and it should be based on the percentage of total wealth each person has, not just their income. That's definitely what I'm saying and I think it's what Dragon was saying.

The top 10% income earners pay 72% of the income taxes based on taxable income.

Source? I ask because I've seen people claim the top 10% are paying X% of income tax, but that's not based on what they are paying, but on what simple tax code calculations say they will pay. The wealthy rarely pay as much as the simple tax code says they should and they often don't pay anything at all.

 

[Dragon]

So the U S tax structure where the top 10% earners pay 72% of the income taxes is on top of it’s game.

No because you deliberately ignored the fact that I was saying tax/dollar earned - not tax overall.

Again you are not debating honestly. Maybe try dealing with the actual post rather than throwing what you think is "gotcha" onliners ?

 

[Sendai]

No because you deliberately ignored the fact that I was saying tax/dollar earned - not tax overall.

Again you are not debating honestly. Maybe try dealing with the actual post rather than throwing what you think is "gotcha" onliners ?

Income tax is based on tax/dollar earned. In the U.S. the top 10% of earners(earned income) pay 72% of income taxes. Seems appropriate.

 

[Sendai]

The top 10% hiding some of their wealth and/or not actually paying 72% of income taxes has everything to do with whether not the top 10% are actually paying the same amount in taxes as they are benefiting from everything our soceity provides them so that they can have that wealth.

Without what we provide them as a society, they don't have that wealth, so the fair system is that everybody pitches in to pay for the cost of what society provides at the same proportion they benefit from what society provides.

That's exactly what Dragon said that you chimed in on.


We are saying it should be and it should be based on the percentage of total wealth each person has, not just their income. That's definitely what I'm saying and I think it's what Dragon was saying.


Source? I ask because I've seen people claim the top 10% are paying X% of income tax, but that's not based on what they are paying, but on what simple tax code calculations say they will pay. The wealthy rarely pay as much as the simple tax code says they should and they often don't pay anything at all.

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2025 Update

New IRS data shows the US federal income tax system continues to be progressive as high-income taxpayers pay the highest average income tax rates. Average tax rates for all income groups remain lower after the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA).

taxfoundation.org

 

[Dragon]

Income tax is based on tax/dollar earned. In the U.S. the top 10% of earners(earned income) pay 72% of income taxes. Seems appropriate.

No income tax is based on a % of dollars earned. Not total taxes paid. That is the way it should be. Why should a person who only earn 1000 dollars pay 10% of his earnings while a person who earns 100 Million should only pay 1%? And that should be "every income" - If you get stock options that too is "income" because it can be used as collateral to borrow against, even if you don't realise those options.

 

[Sendai]

No income tax is based on a % of dollars earned. Not total taxes paid. That is the way it should be. Why should a person who only earn 1000 dollars pay 10% of his earnings while a person who earns 100 Million should only pay 1%?

Well in the U.S. a person earning $1,000 isn’t going to pay income tax.

And the top 10% of those earners who pay a percentage of their dollars earned are responsible for 72% of the income taxes paid. Simple.

And that person earning $100,000,000 is going to pay roughly $40,000,000 in come tax.

In the U.S. a family of 4 earning $65,300 pay $0 in income tax. They are still on the hook for SS/Medicare payroll taxes.

 

[Dragon]

Well in the U.S. a person earning $1,000 isn’t going to pay income tax.

And the top 10% of those earners who pay a percentage of their dollars earned are responsible for 72% of the income taxes paid. Simple.

Total income taxes paid says nothing about how much they earned. Since some earns billions the actual tax rate that they paid would be less than 0.1 % and poor people who pay taxes will pay far more than that on every $ and you know it. That is why you keep throwing out the "total taxes paid".

 

[zztop]

I don't know why some of y'all waste your time typing/replying to that person. It's not like anyone will ever get through to someone that dense

 

[Sendai]

Total income taxes paid says nothing about how much they earned. Since some earns billions the actual tax rate that they paid would be less than 0.1 % and poor people who pay taxes will pay far more than that on every $ and you know it. That is why you keep throwing out the "total taxes paid".

Until they realize a gain they have earned nothing.

Your Danish billionaires only pay taxes on earned income. Not on unrealized gains.

As I said, the top 10% of earners provide 72% of income tax. Which is rather substantial.

 

[Dragon]

Until they realize a gain they have earned nothing.

Your Danish billionaires only pay taxes on earned income. Not on unrealized gains.

Wrong. They pay taxes on everything. Stock options? Taxed Free company phone? Taxed Free company car? Taxed

 

[Sendai]

Wrong. They pay taxes on everything. Stock options? Taxed Free company phone? Taxed Free company car? Taxed

Those are income, realized gains. They do not pay taxes on unrealized gains. When the value of the stock or assets ncrease in value that do not pay taxes on that.

 

[Dragon]

Those are income, realized gains. They do not pay taxes on unrealized gains. When the value of the stock or assets ncrease in value that do not pay taxes on that.

Stock options has value - otherwise you could not borrow against them. Try again

 

[Sendai]

Stock options has value - otherwise you could not borrow against them. Try again

I just said options are realized gains. You listed options and I said “those are income”.So taxable.

But not unrealized gains such as increase in stock or asset value.


“Elon Musk faces a hefty tax bill this year — possibly the biggest in U.S. history.

“For those wondering, I will pay over $11 billion in taxes this year,” the Tesla CEO tweeted on Monday.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html