Bipartisan Infrastructure/3.5T Reconciliation/Gov Funding/Debt Ceiling (1 Viewer)

[coldseat]

Thought it would be good to have a place to discuss all the drama on Capitol Hill and whether Democrats will get any of this signed. Given that Republican have abandoned any responsibility of doing anything for the good of country it's on Dems to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling. But as with the reconciliation bill, moderates are opposing this.

I'm really trying hard to understand why Manchin and Sinema are making the reconciliation bill process so difficult and how they think that benefits them? As far as I can see, all it's doing is raising the ire of the majority of democrats towards them. It's been well known for a long time now that both the Infrastructure bill and reconciliation bill were tied together. They worked so hard to get and "Bipartisan" Infrastructure bill together (because it was oh so important to them to work together) and passed in the Senate, but now want to slow drag and bulk on the reconciliation bill (by not being able to negotiate with members of their own party)? There by, Putting both bills passage at risk and tanking both the Biden agenda and any hope of winning Congress in 2022? Make it make sense!

I suspect they'll get it done in the end because the implication of failure are really bad. But why make it so dysfunctional?

The drama and diplomacy are set to intensify over the next 24 hours, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) scrambles to keep her fractious, narrow majority intact and send the first of two major economic initiatives to Biden’s desk. In a sign of the stakes, the president even canceled a planned Wednesday trip to Chicago so that he could stay in Washington and attempt to spare his agenda from collapse.
Democrats generally support the infrastructure package, which proposes major new investments in the country’s aging roads, bridges, pipes, ports and Internet connections. But the bill has become a critical political bargaining chip for liberal-leaning lawmakers, who have threatened to scuttle it to preserve the breadth of a second, roughly $3.5 trillion economic package.
What is in and out of the bipartisan infrastructure bill?
That latter proposal aims to expand Medicare, invest new sums to combat climate change, offer free prekindergarten and community college to all students and extend new aid to low-income families — all financed through taxes increases on wealthy Americans and corporations. Liberals fear it is likely to be slashed in scope dramatically by moderates, including Sens. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) and Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.), unless they hold up the infrastructure package the duo helped negotiate — leading to the stalemate that plagues the party on the eve of the House vote.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/09/29/biden-pelosi-democrats-infrastructure/

 

[MT15]

Maybe my Twitter timeline is different than yours, but all I’ve seen is spite toward the two senators who are holding out. I’m not seeing any “spite” toward progressives. Just some observations mostly like mine: they don’t hold enough seats to flex this kind of power at this time. They don’t realize how damaging it will be to the party as a whole to torpedo Biden’s first infrastructure bill at this time.

Republican voters don’t punish their reps for failing to govern, clearly. But democratic voters do. Democrats are generally held to a higher standard than Republicans. It is what it is, and failure to realize that and the “burn it all down” mentality is, in the end, self-defeating. Which is generally the definition of spite, really.

 

[bdb13]

I don't either, but it would be much better if there wasn't so much spite and disingenuous behavior aimed at liberals/progressives from moderates in their own party. At least treat that faction of the dem party with the requite respect and power they have, just like they go out of their way to do with Republicans at every turn.

I don't know the answer to this, has the AOC wing said it's willing to negotiate and agree to a smaller number with Manchin and Sinema if they're willing to move?

 

[MT15]

I agree with this on the debt ceiling:

 

[bdb13]

Maybe my Twitter timeline is different than yours, but all I’ve seen is spite toward the two senators who are holding out. I’m not seeing any “spite” toward progressives.

I'd say that's about the way my Twitter appears too. Crazy how different your perceptions can be.

 

[MT15]

Here’s a good example: I like both these guys and mostly agree with them. But they don’t see any merit in anything but their own POV. And they’re super willing to call anyone who doesn’t agree with them a fascist at the drop of a hat. That trait has always been there among the fringe of both parties. I don’t like it when Trumpers demonize Democrats and I don’t like it when progressives demonize moderates. It’s a different point of view on a policy for crying out loud. To listen to them, moderates are getting ready to fire up the gas chambers. It’s ridiculous.

 

[samiam5211]

Joe Manchin should just say that he fell in love with the Democratic party as a child when they were standing up against integration and that he has no idea what happened to the party he fell in love with.

 

[coldseat]

Maybe my Twitter timeline is different than yours, but all I’ve seen is spite toward the two senators who are holding out. I’m not seeing any “spite” toward progressives. Just some observations mostly like mine: they don’t hold enough seats to flex this kind of power at this time. They don’t realize how damaging it will be to the party as a whole to torpedo Biden’s first infrastructure bill at this time.

Republican voters don’t punish their reps for failing to govern, clearly. But democratic voters do. Democrats are generally held to a higher standard than Republicans. It is what it is, and failure to realize that and the “burn it all down” mentality is, in the end, self-defeating. Which is generally the definition of spite, really.

I'm not talking about spite from constituents, which is what you seem to be focused on. I'm talking about spite between the Senators and congressman. And spite doesn't have to always be voiced to be obvious (especially when mixed with being disingenuous). It's very clear from how the moderates treat/deal with the progressive wing of the dem caucus that that spite is there and evident. Progressives are just a lot more honest about voicing their discontentment and annoyance.

Good luck on getting democratic voters not to punish their representatives for not governing when that's what they're elected to do. Republicans don't care about governing because they aren't electing their representatives to govern, they're electing them to own the libs. But you're absolutely right about the stakes of all of this, which why I'm so frustrated that Manchin, Sinema and other moderates seem to not recognize what's truly at stake. Not passing the reconciliation bill with have the same effect of tanking both bills.

 

[coldseat]

I don't know the answer to this, has the AOC wing said it's willing to negotiate and agree to a smaller number with Manchin and Sinema if they're willing to move?

Progressives have been begging them to "TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT", but Manchin and Sinema seem incapable of doing that. One would surmise because they really don't want the reconciliation bill at all.

 

[bdb13]

Progressives have been begging them to "TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT", but Manchin and Sinema seem incapable of doing that. One would surmise because they really don't want the reconciliation bill at all.

Progressives or Democratic leaders? I think I've heard maybe Pelosi and Schumer voice it, but didn't know if that bloc had indicated that they'd go along with it.

 

[coldseat]

Progressives or Democratic leaders? I think I've heard maybe Pelosi and Schumer voice it, but didn't know if that bloc had indicated that they'd go along with it.

They don't even know what they'd have to "go along with" because Manchin and Sinema haven't put that out there. But they've all begged them to tell them their hardlines so that they can negotiate and figure out a path forward. I've heard that from all the progressives. Progressives are not the ones holding this up!

 

[bdb13]

They don't even know what they'd have to "go along with" because Manchin and Sinema haven't put that out there. But they've all begged them to tell them their hardlines so that they can negotiate and figure out a path forward. I've heard that from all the progressives. Progressives are not the ones holding this up!

I agree that they aren't the ones holding up the reconciliation bill, but they are the ones who are holding the bipartisan bill hostage because they view it as their best leverage in getting the other bill passed.

I think that's proving to be an ill advised strategy as Manchin never gave them any indication that he was willing to go along with the reconciliation bill... So then effectively you have no leverage if Manchin is comfortable enough with where he currently stands, which again, I'm not sure he ever indicated it would be otherwise.

 

[bdb13]

It's almost a miracle in and of itself that there's currently a Democratic Senator in West Virginia, anything that the Democrats pass with Manchin as their deciding vote should almost be looked at as a bonus imo.. for all intents and purposes that seat should be held by a Republican and the only reason it's not is because Manchin is who he is and if he didn't exist the Democrats would be passing less shirt than they are now because they wouldn't have control of the Senate.

 

[bdb13]

Funny, literally just saw this on Google News:

Joe Manchin proposed a deal to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer this summer to limit the total cost of Democrats' sweeping spending bill to $1.5 trillion, according to a copy of the agreement obtained by POLITICO.

Manchin also suggested beginning debate no earlier than Oct. 1.

The West Virginia senator has been distributing the document to Democratic colleagues and leaders in recent days to underscore that he has outlined his red lines on President Joe Biden’s jobs and families plan. The one-page understanding is dated July 28, right before the Senate passed a bipartisan infrastructure bill that Manchin helped write and ahead of Senate passage of a budget setting up a spending bill as large as $3.5 trillion.

Manchin proposed $1.5T top-line number to Schumer this summer

Manchin also suggested beginning debate no earlier than Oct. 1.

www.politico.com

So then, if it's true he's been distributing it in recent days, who are the ones still saying that he hasn't put a number out there?

 

[coldseat]

Funny, literally just saw this on Google News:

Manchin proposed $1.5T top-line number to Schumer this summer

Manchin also suggested beginning debate no earlier than Oct. 1.

www.politico.com

So then, if it's true he's been distributing it in recent days, who are the ones still saying that he hasn't put a number out there?

Haha, just saw that myself on CNN. The timing of this coming out is very convenient for Manchin. Must be getting a lot of pressure.

The West Virginia senator has been distributing the document to Democratic colleagues and leaders in recent days to underscore that he has outlined his red lines on President Joe Biden’s jobs and families plan.

 

[MT15]

Yes, I saw that today also, but if he truly did give them a number back in the summer, then the accusations lately have been wrong.

Progressives will be punished by the voters along with the moderates if they can’t get this done.

 

[MT15]

Progressives have been begging them to "TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT", but Manchin and Sinema seem incapable of doing that. One would surmise because they really don't want the reconciliation bill at all.

I don’t know about Sinema, but I do think Manchin will go with the program if he can get some concessions.

 

[MT15]

I just heard an interview on tv with a NE R representative whose name I didn’t catch. He said that the Democrats have proposed eliminating the debt ceiling, not raising it. He said he would vote to raise the debt ceiling, like both parties have always done, but he wouldn’t go along with eliminating it.

This POV is one I had not heard. If that is true, then IMO dems should compromise and put out a number to raise the ceiling by, like has been done in the past. And it makes me a bit more hopeful that they will be able to get together and accomplish that.

He also said he would vote for the hard infrastructure bill today, even though that idiot (my description, lol) McCarthy and R leadership is whipping against the bipartisan bill. He said he agreed with the bill and would vote for it.

R leadership sees the way the D party is struggling with this issue and would rather give the D party a black eye by voting against a good bill that they should support. They are being the same as progressives if they end up voting against a bill that Biden wants and needs.

 

[MT15]

Also just heard on tv from John Heilman that the vote tonight on the hard infrastructure bill was promised by Pelosi to the moderate dems. (I think they were hoping enough Rs would vote for the bill that they could just get it through and move on.)

He said if the bill doesn’t pass tonight, it isn’t the end and all is not lost. It may just be the wake up call that both sides need to make them start talking to each other and get this done. I’m hoping that he’s right.