Banning books in schools (2 Viewers)

[Optimus Prime]

Excellent article I thought deserved its own thread
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On the surface, it would appear that book censors and censored authors like myself can agree on one thing: Books are powerful.

Particularly books for children and teens.

Why else would people like me spend so much time and energy writing them?

Why else would censors spend so much time and energy trying to keep them out of kids’ hands?

In a country where the average adult is reading fewer and fewer books, it’s a surprise to find Americans arguing so much about them.

In this election year, parents and politicians — so many politicians — are jumping into the fray to say how powerful books can be.

Granted, politicians often make what I do sound like witchcraft, but I take this as a compliment.

I’ll admit, one of my first thoughts about the current wildfire of attempted censorship was: How quaint.

Conservatives seemed to be dusting off their playbook from 1958, when the only way our stories could get to kids was through schools and libraries.

While both are still crucial sanctuaries for readers, they’re hardly the only options. Plenty of booksellers supply titles that are taken off school shelves.

And words can be very widely shared free of charge on social media and the rest of the internet. If you take my book off a shelf, you keep it away from that shelf, but you hardly keep it away from readers.

As censorship wars have raged in so many communities, damaging the lives of countless teachers, librarians, parents and children, it’s begun to feel less and less quaint.

This is not your father’s book censorship…..

Here’s something I never thought I’d be nostalgic for: sincere censors. When my first novel, “Boy Meets Boy,” was published in 2003, it was immediately the subject of many challenges, some of which kept the book from ever getting on a shelf in the first place.

At the time, a challenge usually meant one parent trying to get a book pulled from a school or a library, going through a formal process.

I often reminded myself to try to find some sympathy for these parents; yes, they were wrong, and their desire to control what other people in the community got to read was wrong — but more often than not, the challenge was coming from fear of a changing world, a genuine (if incorrect) belief that being gay would lead kids straight to ruination and hell, and/or the misbegotten notion that if all the books that challenged the (homophobic, racist) status quo went away, then the status quo would remain intact.

It was, in some ways, as personal to them as it was to those of us on the other side of the challenge.

And nine times out of 10, the book would remain on the shelf.

It’s not like that now. What I’ve come to believe, as I’ve talked to authors and librarians and teachers, is that attacks are less and less about the actual books.

We’re being used as targets in a much larger proxy war.

The goal of that war isn’t just to curtail intellectual freedom but to eviscerate the public education system in this country.

Censors are scorching the earth, without care for how many kids get burned.

Racism and homophobia are still very much present, but it’s also a power grab, a money grab. The goal for many is a for-profit, more authoritarian and much less diverse culture, one in which truth is whatever you’re told it is, your identity is determined by its acceptability and the past is a lie that the future is forced to emulate.

The politicians who holler and post and draw up their lists of “harmful” books aren’t actually scared of our books.

They are using our books to scare people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2022/09/23/standing-up-new-censorship/

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

You keep saying this, but I remember reading that as being debunked and overstated by right wing sources.

Also - we can concentrate on improving education AND not ban books. It’s not an either / or thing.

I would submit that the people obsessed with banning books would be better using that energy to help out their local school systems. It’s oppressive and a waste of time for them to try to be the book police.

Yep, it's just more of the Republican lies and deceit. Lying by saying public education is worse than it is, all while they intentionally destroy public education and pretend they honestly care about every child getting equal educational opportunity.

 

[MT15]

Depends on the school board member. They are elected and they do represent the district as a whole. I would hope the have the best interest of the student at heart. But liberals have the same rights a conservatives. If you don’t like the current management, you can work to replace them next cycle. It all cuts both ways. Unless you have the resources to go private, you are stuck with whatever the public option decides.

Do you expect your school board members to force teachers to compile a list of every book in their classroom and in the school library to turn in to them? So they can micro-manage the list of books? There were several hundred books in my grandson’s first grade classroom. Do you think it’s a good use of that teacher’s time to have to compile such a list? And in this case it was just one board member who demanded these lists, for the purpose of him telling teachers to get rid of books he doesn’t like.

This isn’t what school boards are supposed to do. It’s an authoritarian stance and you think it’s okay?

 

[TampaJoe]

Do you expect your school board members to force teachers to compile a list of every book in their classroom and in the school library to turn in to them? So they can micro-manage the list of books? There were several hundred books in my grandson’s first grade classroom. Do you think it’s a good use of that teacher’s time to have to compile such a list? And in this case it was just one board member who demanded these lists, for the purpose of him telling teachers to get rid of books he doesn’t like.

This isn’t what school boards are supposed to do. It’s an authoritarian stance and you think it’s okay?

I dunno. Do you think your grandson is getting a good education? Do you have concerns as a parent or grandparent as to what your child is being taught? If you have concerns the teachers and the school system is straying from education and into other things then yeah maybe oversight into such matters is warranted. Do parents have a right to question teachers and school systems? Do parents have a right to know what their kids are being taught? What they are reading? Do you as a citizen have a right to know these things?

Having parents who are actively concerned about the education of their children is a good thing. It is much better than the other way around. The challenge of teachers and school administrators and school boards is to navigate all of those concerns. You aren’t gonna please everyone all the time but you can’t tell them to butt out because these are their children after all. They do not belong to the state or the school board or the teacher. Those folks deliver a service and the people they serve have every right to know what goes on in the classroom.

 

[Dragon]

I dunno. Don’t think your grandson is getting a good education? Don’t have concerns as a parents grandparents as to what your child is being taught? If you have concerns the teachers and the school system is straying from education and into other things then yeah maybe oversight into such matters is warranted. Do parents have a right to question teachers and school systems? Do parents have a right to know what their kids are being taught? What they are reading? Do you as a citizen have a right to know these things?

Having parents who are actively concerned about the education of their children is a good thing. It is much better than the other way around. The challenge of teachers and school administrators and school boards is to navigate all of those concerns. You aren’t gonna please everyone all the time but you can’t tell them to butt out because these are their children after all. They do not belong to the state or the school board or the teacher. Those folks deliver a service and the people they serve have every right to know what goes on in the classroom.

Problem is that they are not only deciding for THEIR child but also for everyone elses children. So what right do they have to do that? Turn the table around - if very progressive parents gets the upper hand in the school board election would you be fine with them deciding to include text books about race, gender and socialism in the curriculum? I mean it should go both way - right ?

 

[TampaJoe]

Problem is that they are not only deciding for THEIR child but also for everyone elses children. So what right do they have to do that? Turn the table around - if very progressive parents gets the upper hand in the school board election would you be fine with them deciding to include text books about race, gender and socialism in the curriculum? I mean it should go both way - right ?

Every school board decides for every kid in the system don’t they? This isn’t ala carte. So obviously it is their job to try, to attempt, to address the concerns of parents when possible.

And to your point, parents got a peek into the classroom during Covid when everything went to remote learning and they became concerned about what was being taught to their kids. So it does in fact cut both ways. And books like Tom Sawyer were banned from some classrooms. Classics like To Kill a Mockingbird.

So you aren’t going to please everyone especially when everything ends up online and somebody is always offended by something. Even in Universities where we hope to show diverse points of view. People are shouted down or disinvited because somebody somewhere might be offended and believes they have the right to tell people what they can or cannot say.

So IMV, there are plenty of books and materials in the public school libraries that everyone agrees with. So maybe we should be more worried about teaching these kids how to read what is there. If their parents want to expose them to materials, be they conservative or liberal, that is their choice. They can provide those books to their kids. They are readily available online.

 

[Dragon]

Every school board decides for every kid in the system don’t they? This isn’t ala carte. So obviously it is their job to try, to attempt, to address the concerns of parents when possible.

And to your point, parents got a peek into the classroom during Covid when everything went to remote learning and they became concerned about what was being taught to their kids. So it does in fact cut both ways. And books like Tom Sawyer were banned from some classrooms. Classics like To Kill a Mockingbird.

So you aren’t going to please everyone especially when everything ends up online and somebody is always offended by something. Even in Universities where we hope to show diverse points of view. People are shouted down or disinvited because somebody somewhere might be offended and believes they have the right to tell people what they can or cannot say.

So IMV, there are plenty of books and materials in the public school libraries that everyone agrees with. So maybe we should be more worried about teaching these kids how to read what is there. If their parents want to expose them to materials, be they conservative or liberal, that is their choice. They can provide those books to their kids. They are readily available online.

What is wrong with exposing children to multiple ideas and letting them learn how to think for themselves? Books broaden perspectives, challenge assumptions, and encourage critical thinking. They help young people examine what they believe, question ideas, and decide for themselves what they think is right or wrong.

Shielding students from every uncomfortable or controversial topic does not create informed, mature adults. It creates people who have only been exposed to one approved viewpoint. That is far closer to indoctrination than giving students access to different perspectives and teaching them how to evaluate information critically.

The goal of education should not be to produce students who never encounter ideas their parents disagree with. It should be to help develop thoughtful young adults who can analyze information, understand nuance, recognize bias, and make their own informed decisions about what to believe.

 

[TampaJoe]

What is wrong with exposing children to multiple ideas and letting them learn how to think for themselves? Books broaden perspectives, challenge assumptions, and encourage critical thinking. They help young people examine what they believe, question ideas, and decide for themselves what they think is right or wrong.

Shielding students from every uncomfortable or controversial topic does not create informed, mature adults. It creates people who have only been exposed to one approved viewpoint. That is far closer to indoctrination than giving students access to different perspectives and teaching them how to evaluate information critically.

The goal of education should not be to produce students who never encounter ideas their parents disagree with. It should be to help develop thoughtful young adults who can analyze information, understand nuance, recognize bias, and make their own informed decisions about what to believe.

Depends on age, depends on what is being presented and how it is presented. That’s the difference between education and teaching students how to think for themselves versus indoctrination. What you may consider “broadening perspectives” may be considered indoctrination by some folks especially in younger students. So school boards have to try to strike a balance. Ultimately parents are responsible for making sure their kids get properly educated and that includes what values they are taught and at what age.

As I said, there are plenty of books that no one objects to in school libraries and classrooms. A few may be objectionable at some level by people on either side of the spectrum. So we can spend time arguing over the exceptions or we can work to make sure their parents students read at grade level and can perform in math and science. If a parent believes their child needs to be exposed to a book that isn’t in the school library, that book isn’t banned. It is more likely than not available online or at the local bookstore.

 

[Dragon]

Depends on age, depends on what is being presented and how it is presented. That’s the difference between education and teaching students how to think for themselves versus indoctrination. What you may consider “broadening perspectives” may be considered indoctrination by some folks especially in younger students. So school boards have to try to strike a balance. Ultimately parents are responsible for making sure their kids get properly educated and that includes what values they are taught and at what age.

As I said, there are plenty of books that no one objects to in school libraries and classrooms. A few may be objectionable at some level by people on either side of the spectrum. So we can spend time arguing over the exceptions or we can work to make sure their parents students read at grade level and can perform in math and science. If a parent believes their child needs to be exposed to a book that isn’t in the school library, that book isn’t banned. It is more likely than not available online or at the local bookstore.

It is not indoctrination to expose students to multiple perspectives and teach them how to evaluate information critically. Indoctrination happens when students are only allowed to hear one approved viewpoint while other ideas, histories, or identities are removed or silenced.

Nobody is arguing that kindergartners should be handed advanced political theory. Age-appropriate education already exists and always has. But there is a difference between deciding when to introduce difficult subjects and trying to ensure students never encounter perspectives certain groups dislike.

And saying “parents can provide those books themselves” ignores what public education is supposed to be. Public schools are not meant to reflect only one set of political or religious beliefs. They serve an entire community with different backgrounds, cultures, and values.

Groups like Moms for Liberty claim to support liberty, but in practice they often push to restrict what all children are allowed to read and learn based on their definition of acceptable truth. That is not expanding freedom or encouraging independent thought — IT is the real inductrination that is happening all over the US today.

A strong education system should produce young adults who can think critically, recognize bias, weigh evidence, and make informed decisions for themselves — not people who were protected from every uncomfortable idea until adulthood.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

To keep saying it's about the parents right to know is not honest or accurate. The banning of books and curriculum is about controlling other people's children, it's not about knowing what's going on with their children.

Do parents have a right to question teachers and school systems?

Yes they have a right to ask questions, but they don't have a right to demand that the school tailor their curriculum to what they want. Schools can't function if every parent can dictate to schools what they can and can't teach.

That's the whole point of the "parent's rights" movement regarding schools. The movement has no intention of making schools better. Their only intent is to create chaos and tension that will paralyze and destroy the school.

Do parents have a right to know what their kids are being taught? What they are reading?

Parents have always had that right and the best way for them to know what their kids are reading and being taught is to ask their kids.

Having parents who are actively concerned about the education of their children is a good thing.

Parents who are honestly actively concerned about their children's education will know what they're children are reading and being taught, because they will talk to their children about it and help them with their homework. The parents who demand books be removed aren't doing it to keep their children from reading the book, they're doing it to keep everyone else's children from being able to read those books.

...you can’t tell them to butt out because these are their children after all.

No one is telling parents to "butt out." What they are telling parents is that no one parent has the right to dictate what can and can't be taught or read.

They do not belong to the state or the school board or the teacher.

Children do not belong to their parents or anyone else, because children are people, they are not property. Show me a parent who thinks their children "belong to them" and I'll show you a dysfunctional parent.

Those folks deliver a service and the people they serve have every right to know what goes on in the classroom.

"Those folks" are not keeping parents from knowing what's going on in the classroom. They in fact encourage the parents to be involved. The parents that are pushing for book bans are not trying to know what their children are reading. They are trying to dictate to everyone else's children what they can and can not read.

 

[Optimus Prime]

 

[TampaJoe]

It is not indoctrination to expose students to multiple perspectives and teach them how to evaluate information critically. Indoctrination happens when students are only allowed to hear one approved viewpoint while other ideas, histories, or identities are removed or silenced.

Nobody is arguing that kindergartners should be handed advanced political theory. Age-appropriate education already exists and always has. But there is a difference between deciding when to introduce difficult subjects and trying to ensure students never encounter perspectives certain groups dislike.

And saying “parents can provide those books themselves” ignores what public education is supposed to be. Public schools are not meant to reflect only one set of political or religious beliefs. They serve an entire community with different backgrounds, cultures, and values.

Groups like Moms for Liberty claim to support liberty, but in practice they often push to restrict what all children are allowed to read and learn based on their definition of acceptable truth. That is not expanding freedom or encouraging independent thought — IT is the real inductrination that is happening all over the US today.

A strong education system should produce young adults who can think critically, recognize bias, weigh evidence, and make informed decisions for themselves — not people who were protected from every uncomfortable idea until adulthood.

I don’t disagree that strong education should produce young adults who think critically. But you are not going to find universal agreement in this country on what value systems should be taught in public schools. You know it and I know it. We don’t all think alike. Further that whole value proposition not only differs within the community but also differs from community to community across the country.

So school boards have to strike a balance. They are there to serve the needs of the student and the community. If some parents feel or believe that their kids need to be exposed to certain points of view not taught in the classroom, they have a right to fill that gap themselves. This is the argument that was given to conservatives back in the day when they ended prayer in the classroom and stopped saying the pledge of allegiance. The same philosophy holds true today for both liberal and conservative parents.

There are enough agreed upon materials available in schools today to teach kids how to reason and think critically. It is a skill set they can apply outside of the classroom to any number of areas both conservative and liberal. You aren’t and can’t cover them all in school. They will figure it out just like we did back in the day.

 

[Dragon]

I don’t disagree that strong education should produce young adults who think critically. But you are not going to find universal agreement in this country on what value systems should be taught in public schools. You know it and I know it. We don’t all think alike. Further that whole value proposition not only differs within the community but also differs from community to community across the country.

So school boards have to strike a balance. They are there to serve the needs of the student and the community. If some parents feel or believe that their kids need to be exposed to certain points of view not taught in the classroom, they have a right to fill that gap themselves. This is the argument that was given to conservatives back in the day when they ended prayer in the classroom and stopped saying the pledge of allegiance. The same philosophy holds true today for both liberal and conservative parents.

There are enough agreed upon materials available in schools today to teach kids how to reason and think critically. It is a skill set they can apply outside of the classroom to any number of areas both conservative and liberal. You aren’t and can’t cover them all in school. They will figure it out just like we did back in the day.

Schools don’t need to “teach a value system” so much as they need to teach students how to think — critical thinking, literacy, history, science, and exposure to a range of ideas and perspectives. That gives students the tools to understand the world and, over time, form their own informed values.

Of course there will never be universal agreement on every topic or every book in a diverse country. That’s exactly why public education should focus on skills and knowledge rather than enforcing a single moral framework. The goal isn’t to make everyone think the same way, but to ensure everyone has the ability to think for themselves.

And yes, parents absolutely have the right to reinforce their own beliefs at home or supplement what their children read and learn. The issue arises when that right turns into efforts to restrict what all students are allowed to access in public schools. At that point it stops being about individual choice and becomes about limiting exposure for everyone else’s children too.

A strong education system doesn’t replace parents — it equips students. It gives them a foundation to understand different viewpoints, evaluate evidence, and then decide for themselves what they believe.

 

[TampaJoe]

Schools don’t need to “teach a value system” so much as they need to teach students how to think — critical thinking, literacy, history, science, and exposure to a range of ideas and perspectives. That gives students the tools to understand the world and, over time, form their own informed values.

Of course there will never be universal agreement on every topic or every book in a diverse country. That’s exactly why public education should focus on skills and knowledge rather than enforcing a single moral framework. The goal isn’t to make everyone think the same way, but to ensure everyone has the ability to think for themselves.

And yes, parents absolutely have the right to reinforce their own beliefs at home or supplement what their children read and learn. The issue arises when that right turns into efforts to restrict what all students are allowed to access in public schools. At that point it stops being about individual choice and becomes about limiting exposure for everyone else’s children too.

A strong education system doesn’t replace parents — it equips students. It gives them a foundation to understand different viewpoints, evaluate evidence, and then decide for themselves what they believe.

I don’t disagree with what you say. I believe that you can give students the skill set you describe with the books that remain in the library. If you give the the skills, they will figure out the rest on their own.

 

[Dragon]

I don’t disagree with what you say. I believe that you can give students the skill set you describe with the books that remain in the library. If you give the the skills, they will figure out the rest on their own.

No they can't and you know it. The only ones who are in favor of book bannings are those who are afraid of their children being exposed to other oppinion than those they hold themselves and in order to do so - they have no problems with denying all the other children whose parents don't agree with them, that knowledge.

You have repeatedly shown that you are in favor of indoctrination according to YOUR beliefs and have no qualms about denying other peoples children knowledge just because you don't agree with it.

 

[TampaJoe]

No they can't and you know it. The only ones who are in favor of book bannings are those who are afraid of their children being exposed to other oppinion than those they hold themselves and in order to do so - they have no problems with denying all the other children whose parents don't agree with them, that knowledge.

You have repeatedly shown that you are in favor of indoctrination according to YOUR beliefs and have no qualms about denying other peoples children knowledge just because you don't agree with it.

Sure they can. And you know that. These are skills. Critical thinking is a skill. You can teach that skill in a number of ways. I learned it in the 10th grade in HS when I took pure logic. Teach these kids how to think logically. Teach them how to problem solve. They can and will figure it out the same way you and I did in the 70’s.

I would argue to you that the only ones who think these kids can’t learn to think for themselves without these specific books are the ones who want to indoctrinate rather than educate.

Finally, I have never said that I wanted to indoctrinate anyone according to my beliefs. Never. So back that up with an actual post of mine or withdraw it. Stop putting words in my mouth. It’s dishonest.

 

[Dragon]

Sure they can. And you know that. These are skills. Critical thinking is a skill. You can teach that skill in a number of ways. I learned it in the 10th grade in HS when I took pure logic. Teach these kids how to think logically. Teach them how to problem solve. They can and will figure it out the same way you and I did in the 70’s.

I would argue to you that the only ones who think these kids can’t learn to think for themselves without these specific books are the ones who want to indoctrinate rather than educate.

Finally, I have never said that I wanted to indoctrinate anyone according to my beliefs. Never. So back that up with an actual post of mine or withdraw it. Stop putting words in my mouth. It’s dishonest.

You are in favor of book bans - when deciding what other peoples children can read school - then it is indoctrination because the only books they will read and discuss in school would be those that matches those ideologies. That is why it is important to have a wide variety of books covering many aspects of society because then it allows children to discuss and form their own oppinions.

 

[TampaJoe]

You are in favor of book bans - when deciding what other peoples children can read school - then it is indoctrination because the only books they will read and discuss in school would be those that matches those ideologies. That is why it is important to have a wide variety of books covering many aspects of society because then it allows children to discuss and form their own oppinions.

Show me a post where I supported banning a single book. A single one. Which book exactly did I favor banning.

And every single school board, conservative or progressive makes decisions about what other people’s children can read in school. That is the actual job of the school board. That is precisely what they are hired to do. You just don’t happen to agree with some of their decisions.

Where we differ is that you want to fight over book choices. I would rather spend that time and energy teaching actual skills to those students. I actually think any teacher worth their salt can teach these concepts to students in any number of ways and doesn’t need these certain specific books to do so. You are certainly free to disagree. That is your right. And other who feel as you do can do the same thing conservatives do when they disagree. Run for school board themselves or work to vote in board members who share their beliefs. That is democracy.

Hopefully that is an ideology we both can agree upon.

 

[Dragon]

Show me a post where I supported banning a single book. A single one. Which book exactly did I favor banning.

And every single school board, conservative or progressive makes decisions about what other people’s children can read in school. That is the actual job of the school board. That is precisely what they are hired to do. You just don’t happen to agree with some of their decisions.

Where we differ is that you want to fight over book choices. I would rather spend that time and energy teaching actual skills to those students. I actually think any teacher worth their salt can teach these concepts to students in any number of ways and doesn’t need these certain specific books to do so. You are certainly free to disagree. That is your right. And other who feel as you do can do the same thing conservatives do when they disagree. Run for school board themselves or work to vote in board members who share their beliefs. That is democracy.

Hopefully that is an ideology we both can agree upon.

School curricula should be guided primarily by educational and academic standards — literacy, history, science, critical thinking, and age-appropriate learning — not by whichever political movement currently has the loudest voice.

Once politics starts deciding which facts, histories, or perspectives students are allowed to encounter, education risks turning into ideology. That is especially true when certain books or subjects are removed not because they lack educational value, but because they challenge a particular worldview or make some adults uncomfortable.

A healthy education system should expose students to evidence, history, literature, and different perspectives, then teach them how to analyze and evaluate those ideas critically. The moment education becomes about protecting students from ideas rather than teaching them how to engage with them thoughtfully, it moves closer to indoctrination than education.

Before the election You claimed that the US primary and secondary students were lagging behind the students in the rest of the world. Maybe it is because that most democracies do NOT politicies curriculums but teaches critical thinking and do not politicize curricula.