All things Racist...USA edition (4 Viewers)

[Farb]

I was looking for a place to put this so we could discuss but didn't really find a place that worked so I created this thread so we can all place articles, experiences, videos and examples of racism in the USA.

This is one that happened this week. The lady even called and filed a complaint on the officer. This officer also chose to wear the body cam (apparently, LA doesn't require this yet). This exchange wasn't necessarily racist IMO until she started with the "mexican racist...you will never be white, like you want" garbage. That is when it turned racist IMO

All the murderer and other insults, I think are just a by product of CRT and ACAB rhetoric that is very common on the radical left and sadly is being brought to mainstream in this country.

Another point that I think is worth mentioning is she is a teacher and the sense of entitlement she feels is mind blowing.

https://news.yahoo.com/black-teacher-berates-latino-la-221235341.html

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

OK, here is your question:


This is what you pasted:


The key here is the definition of hate speech. What specific words or phrases are forbidden? Does the list of forbidden words changes with time? What is the legal punishment for speaking such words? Let me ask you what is hate speech? The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap. This is not very specific. Do you think that limiting speech in America would cause racism to go down? Would someone like Trump go to prison because of what he has said?

I do not have a disagreement here.


Do you mean banning the KKK, the NAZI party? That would be fine by me. Or do you mean banning the Republican Party? Who determines what activity promotes racism?

Partnering of the government with antiracists groups? We sort of have this here in many areas of the country. We saw congress men take a knee and so forth.

The French have a much stronger anti-racism bias than America despite the fact that they do not promote race ID politics.

You pasted:

The have also installed laws of compelled speech. It sounds a bit like 1984. The question that begs an answer is: How tightly to they enforce these laws?

America is much more rooted in freedom than France. I would not have issues with all the laws, but I am not certain the American courts would uphold these laws based on the Constitution. The United States does not have hate speech laws, since the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that laws criminalizing hate speech violate the guarantee to freedom of speech contained in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Are you OK with the French laws?

Not really, I prefer the calling out and shaming racist. Publicly humiliating them .
But you were the one who brought up Frances Kumbaya race relations. If you want that kind of change, then those are the kind of laws you have would to enact. Do you think France would be that way had they not passed those laws?
Although i would not prefer the laws France has in place, if they passes laws like that here, i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Of course it would cause riots from the far right.

in lieu of me rambling on, My point is, YOU brought up France and how good their race relations are. But you are not willing to go the route France did. So you cannot keep bringing up "well they are like this" .
They are like that because the gov't MADE them.

 

[Saintamaniac]

You used France as a model siting that, in your opinion, they handle racism better than we do here in the US.

Yes there is racism in France, but I think they handle it better than we do and they avoid group ID politics.

It was explained to you exactly how they "handle racism better" outlining exactly the steps that they took as a government and a society to combat racism. That explanation included a lot of steps that we in the US would oppose because it violates the 1st amendment. Essentially, the explanation showed you why using France as an example was a bad idea and did do what you thought it would do.

So after throwing France against the wall to see if it stuck, you ask someone a question as if they originally supported the idea of instituting the steps that France took to "handle racism better".

What kind of laws you want the USA to pass?

Are you OK with the French laws?

YOU brought up the idea of France as an example.
YOU put France up on that pedestal.
And now you are asking someone questions as if THEY were the ones who brought up France.

You constructed the argument of France as an example. You built them up almost as something that we in the US should aspire to. And now that France has been shown to not be the great example you thought it was, you are attacking others by questioning them as if THEY introduced the idea of France's example.

You realize that what you have built is a straw man and now you are attacking your own example. I thought you didn't like straw men.

Would someone like Trump go to prison because of what he has said?

Nope. Law abiding Americans and those of us who actually believe in the constitution want Trump to go to prison because of what he did.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I am not an expert either, but you should probably learn a bit more about France before you throw it around as if it was some sort of ethnic utopia because they have no legal classifications regarding ethnicity.

It wasn't that long ago that the French blamed "the blacks" for France not qualifying for a World Cup. There is a reason FIFA started its anti-racism campaign there.

They have a term for people born of immigrant parents, second-generation immigrants, unlike the U.S., where they are called first-generation Americans, racial classifications and all.

Did you know why there were such large protests in France after the George Floyd murder? I learned about Adama Traoré from a Mexican news piece, whose image was displayed right next to Floyd's during the protests. You may want to learn about him too, and the "relation" between the French police and minorities.

Even their anti-racism slogan, "black, blanc, beur, unie!" has the curiosity of using a non-French word and a pejorative to define non-whites.

And, one side effect of not having legal ethnic classifications is that it makes it just about impossible to track systemic racism and discrimination.

So, yeah, France, not so cool.

…and let’s not forget their forced deportation of Roma who were French citizens that drew condemnation from the UN a few years ago. They are hardly an ethnic utopia. No place is. It runs counter of human nature.

 

[Paul]

You used France as a model siting that, in your opinion, they handle racism better than we do here in the US.


It was explained to you exactly how they "handle racism better" outlining exactly the steps that they took as a government and a society to combat racism. That explanation included a lot of steps that we in the US would oppose because it violates the 1st amendment. Essentially, the explanation showed you why using France as an example was a bad idea and did do what you thought it would do.

So after throwing France against the wall to see if it stuck, you ask someone a question as if they originally supported the idea of instituting the steps that France took to "handle racism better".



YOU brought up the idea of France as an example.
YOU put France up on that pedestal.
And now you are asking someone questions as if THEY were the ones who brought up France.

You constructed the argument of France as an example. You built them up almost as something that we in the US should aspire to. And now that France has been shown to not be the great example you thought it was, you are attacking others by questioning them as if THEY introduced the idea of France's example.

You realize that what you have built is a straw man and now you are attacking your own example. I thought you didn't like straw men.

Nope. Law abiding Americans and those of us who actually believe in the constitution want Trump to go to prison because of what he did.

What I like about France is that they do not promote division or tribalism by avoiding race ID politics. That was the point i was making.

Some of their laws would be unconstitutional in America, I agree.
You are once again attacking the messenger instead of the message. I think you are a good chap, but you cannot help your vituperative nature.

 

[Paul]

…and let’s not forget their forced deportation of Roma who were French citizens that drew condemnation from the UN a few years ago. They are hardly an ethnic utopia. No place is. It runs counter of human nature.

Straw man, I did not say France was perfect. However, I believe POC are happier in France than in the USA. That is my opinion.

 

[Paul]

Not really, I prefer the calling out and shaming racist. Publicly humiliating them .
But you were the one who brought up Frances Kumbaya race relations. If you want that kind of change, then those are the kind of laws you have would to enact. Do you think France would be that way had they not passed those laws?
Although i would not prefer the laws France has in place, if they passes laws like that here, i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Of course it would cause riots from the far right.

in lieu of me rambling on, My point is, YOU brought up France and how good their race relations are. But you are not willing to go the route France did. So you cannot keep bringing up "well they are like this" .
They are like that because the gov't MADE them.

OK, fair point,
Are you form racial and ethnic classification of citizens by the government?

 

[Saintamaniac]

What I like about France is that they do not promote division or tribalism by avoiding race ID politics. That was the point i was making.

Some of their laws would be unconstitutional in America, I agree.
You are once again attacking the messenger instead of the message. I think you are a good chap, but you cannot help your vituperative nature.

Negative. I'm not attacking the messenger. I'm attacking the messenger's tactics. You can whip out your thesaurus as much as you want. Your arguments are weak at best.

Keep trying to be the victim. You'd make a killing if you own stock in straw. Your construction projects use quite a bit of it.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Straw man, I did not say France was perfect. However, I believe POC are happier in France than in the USA. That is my opinion.

That's the only response you have every time it's proven you have zero clue what you're talking about, which is pretty much always. Just admit you were wrong. It's not that hard. Everyone other than my wife and you do it all the time.

 

[Paul]

That's the only response you have every time it's proven you have zero clue what you're talking about, which is pretty much always. Just admit you were wrong. It's not that hard. Everyone other than my wife and you do it all the time.

You are strawmanning and using Ad hominem regarding my point to make your response look good. It is OK I might have do that myself at some point.

Here is my view about France:
1. I like the fact that they avoid race ID politics.
2. I actually do not mind the anti-racism laws since i do not plan to break any. However, there is a free speech issue.
3. I believe French POC are happier.

That is my opinion.

If your opinion is different feel free to discuss.

 

[Paul]

That's the only response you have every time it's proven you have zero clue what you're talking about, which is pretty much always. Just admit you were wrong. It's not that hard. Everyone other than my wife and you do it all the time.

What is my crime? Where am I wrong. I stated an opinion regarding France. State where I am wrong

Negative. I'm not attacking the messenger. I'm attacking the messenger's tactics. You can whip out your thesaurus as much as you want. Your arguments are weak at best.

Keep trying to be the victim. You'd make a killing if you own stock in straw. Your construction projects use quite a bit of it.

What is weak? That I believe avoiding race ID politics is a good thing? If that is the case feel free to make argument that proves my point is weak. Just saying is weak is not an argument.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

We have been discussing. We've proven you wrong about France, you just won't concede the point because your belief that you have some profound new insights is your identity and your ego won't allow you to concede you really don't have the foundation of knowledge to even form a meaningful opinion on this subject.

As for happiness, your lack of knowledge about black America is why you have that incredibly inaccurate "opinion". I put opinion in quotes because really all you present are bias-driven assumptions. Calling it an opinion is really a stretch. Anyway, blacks are very happy in America. Wanting to continue to improve things, be protected from discrimination, and fully realize the American ethos of "All men are created equal" doesn't mean you're not happy. Your "opinion" is a true strawman, unlike your constant misuse of the term, because it starts from a false premise and builds from there.

 

[Paul]

We have been discussing. We've proven you wrong about France, you just won't concede the point because your belief that you have some profound new insights is your identity and your ego won't allow you to concede you really don't have the foundation of knowledge to even form a meaningful opinion on this subject.

As for happiness, your lack of knowledge about black America is why you have that incredibly inaccurate "opinion". I put opinion in quotes because really all you present are bias-driven assumptions. Calling it an opinion is really a stretch. Anyway, blacks are very happy in America. Wanting to continue to improve things, be protected from discrimination, and fully realize the American ethos of "All men are created equal" doesn't mean you're not happy. Your "opinion" is a true strawman, unlike your constant misuse of the term, because it starts from a false premise and builds from there.

OK, fine, but can you discuss the French anti-racist laws and the fact that they do not use race ID politics,

 

[Paul]

I am not an expert either, but you should probably learn a bit more about France before you throw it around as if it was some sort of ethnic utopia because they have no legal classifications regarding ethnicity.

It wasn't that long ago that the French blamed "the blacks" for France not qualifying for a World Cup. There is a reason FIFA started its anti-racism campaign there.

They have a term for people born of immigrant parents, second-generation immigrants, unlike the U.S., where they are called first-generation Americans, racial classifications and all.

Did you know why there were such large protests in France after the George Floyd murder? I learned about Adama Traoré from a Mexican news piece, whose image was displayed right next to Floyd's during the protests. You may want to learn about him too, and the "relation" between the French police and minorities.

Even their anti-racism slogan, "black, blanc, beur, unie!" has the curiosity of using a non-French word and a pejorative to define non-whites.

And, one side effect of not having legal ethnic classifications is that it makes it just about impossible to track systemic racism and discrimination.

So, yeah, France, not so cool.

OK, there is racism in France, no one denies that, And by the way I do agree that some Europeans are not PC at all.

It seems that you guys feel America is a better place for POC. Is that correct? Why is that the case? Thanks for not attacking the messenger.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

OK, fine, but can you discuss the French anti-racist laws and the fact that they do not use race ID politics,

That discussion is happening, in multiple long posts. I responded to one of those and you went on one of your now comical strawman rants.

They use race ID politics there. People have given you multiple examples and when they do you just claim strawman. They use race ID politics all the time. They also use laws that would never pass muster here to suppress "racist" speech. I'm not going to repeat everything that's already been said so you can ignore it again, that's a waste of time and frankly, your entire MO. You ignore responses then pretend nobody has addressed the logical fallacy you presented when it has been dismantled in spades. Then you play the victim and drop a few "I lost the debate but won't admit that" catchphrases like strawman and ad hominem.

Once again, you lack the basic knowledge needed to have productive discussions on this subject, and instead of realizing that you continue to cling to false premises. I'm not going to keep repeating things and feeding that silliness (although I guess I just did).

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

OK, fair point,
Are you form racial and ethnic classification of citizens by the government?

My mother is Puerto Rican. My Grandmother was born in PR.

 

[SystemShock]

1. I like the fact that they avoid race ID politics.

What makes you think they avoid identity politics? Not having legal ethnic classifications != avoiding identity politics. Speaking of facts, Rassemblement National is a significant political party in France, and their primary platform has been one of anti-immigration and French nationalism.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

You are strawmanning and using Ad hominem regarding my point to make your response look good. It is OK I might have do that myself at some point.

Here is my view about France:
1. I like the fact that they avoid race ID politics.
2. I actually do not mind the anti-racism laws since i do not plan to break any. However, there is a free speech issue.
3. I believe French POC are happier.

That is my opinion.

If your opinion is different feel free to discuss.

But weren't you suggesting we should do like France and avoid the race ID? That was only accomplished through strict laws. POC are happier because of those laws. Most of those laws would NEVER be able to pass here.
So In your opinion, if we got rid of terms like African-American, etc, racism would just mostly go away? Do you think that is what is causing/extending racsim in the USA.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

France was better for blacks for a long time, and many prominent blacks, especially in entertainment, moved there from the 20's through the 60's. This was especially true post WW2. My Dad and his siblings grew up there in the 50's and he was shellshocked as a kid when they came back to the states. He had never faced segregation or blatant in your face racism until they came home in the early 60's.

That has changed over time as America has matured. The end of segregation, opening up of financial opportunities, and various social justice pursuits have balanced the playing field. I'd say America is probably now equal to places like France and Canada that were ahead of us at one point mostly because they desegregated much sooner. However, even states in the US are at different points. California that desegregated in the 30's is way ahead of Mississippi for blacks, for instance.

So it's much more complex than just France and the US. It's better to compare France to the specific US States. I'd rather be a black person in France than Mississippi, but I'd rather be a black person in California than France.