All things Racist...USA edition (2 Viewers)

B4YOU

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There is a foot race between Al and Bob. At the sound of the gun, Al takes off at full speed, but Bob is jumped by Al's friends who tie his feet together and his hands behind is back. Still, the race proceeds with Al going full speed and Bob crawling on the floor towards the finish line.

When Al reaches the quarter marker, the race official says "hmm, that's not fair. Untie Bob's feet". Bob can now run, but with his hands tied behind his back, he really can't achieve full speed. Al of course is just cruising full speed towards the finish line.

As Al reaches the midpoint, the race official says "hmm... that's not fair... untie Bob's hands". Now Bob can run at full speed, but obviously is way behind Al, who's been running full speed all of this time.

As Al reaches the 3 quarter marker, the race official says "hmm, we have not been fair to Bob all this time. Al needs to stop until Bob catches up to Al". Then Al's friends start shouting "That's not fair! They are equal now... don't discriminate against Al!"

DBE may not perfect, and maybe (probably) it is unfair that the sons pay for the sins of the fathers, but still it is trying to correct a wrong that for decades did incalculable social and economic damage to one side of the tracks, while fully benefiting the other.

Some people may say "too bad for your parents and your grandparents, I had nothing to do with that", but they'd be the same people who benefited for the privilege afforded to their parents and grandparents. Of course, "too bad" works both ways.
Using race and gender instead of local and small just creates animosity. The later two will achieve the same ends while not excluding someone based on immutable characteristics.
 

SystemShock

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Using race and gender instead of local and small just creates animosity. The later two will achieve the same ends while not excluding someone based on immutable characteristics.

Discriminating against race and gender for decades, thus trapping people in harsh, disadvantageous social and economic conditions for generations, creates animosity too. "Local" and "small" don't address the issue.
 

Optimus Prime

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In the military
=============

For Stephanie Davis, who grew up with little, the military was a path to the American dream, a realm where everyone would receive equal treatment. She joined the service in 1988 after finishing high school in Thomasville, Georgia, a small town said to be named for a soldier who fought in the War of 1812.

Over the course of decades, she steadily advanced, becoming a flight surgeon, commander of flight medicine at Fairchild Air Force Base and, eventually, a lieutenant colonel.

But many of her service colleagues, Davis says, saw her only as a Black woman. Or for the white resident colleagues who gave her the call sign of ABW – it was a joke, they insisted – an “angry black woman,” a classic racist trope.

White subordinates often refused to salute her or seemed uncomfortable taking orders from her, she says. Some patients refused to call her by her proper rank or even acknowledge her.

She was attacked with racial slurs. And during her residency, she was the sole Black resident in a program with no Black faculty, staff or ancillary personnel.


“For Blacks and minorities, when we initially experience racism or discrimination in the military, we feel blindsided,” Davis said. “We’re taught to believe that it’s the one place where everybody has a level playing field and that we can make it to the top with work that’s based on merit.”

In interviews with The Associated Press, current and former enlistees and officers in nearly every branch of the armed services described a deep-rooted culture of racism and discrimination that stubbornly festers, despite repeated efforts to eradicate it.

The AP found that the military’s judicial system has no explicit category for hate crimes, making it difficult to quantify crimes motivated by prejudice.

The Defense Department also has no way to track the number of troops ousted for extremist views, despite its repeated pledges to root them out. More than 20 people linked to the Jan. 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol were found to have military ties............

 
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Farb

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There is a foot race between Al and Bob. At the sound of the gun, Al takes off at full speed, but Bob is jumped by Al's friends who tie his feet together and his hands behind is back. Still, the race proceeds with Al going full speed and Bob crawling on the floor towards the finish line.

When Al reaches the quarter marker, the race official says "hmm, that's not fair. Untie Bob's feet". Bob can now run, but with his hands tied behind his back, he really can't achieve full speed. Al of course is just cruising full speed towards the finish line.

As Al reaches the midpoint, the race official says "hmm... that's not fair... untie Bob's hands". Now Bob can run at full speed, but obviously is way behind Al, who's been running full speed all of this time.

As Al reaches the 3 quarter marker, the race official says "hmm, we have not been fair to Bob all this time. Al needs to stop until Bob catches up to Al". Then Al's friends start shouting "That's not fair! They are equal now... don't discriminate against Al!"

DBE may not perfect, and maybe (probably) it is unfair that the sons pay for the sins of the fathers, but still it is trying to correct a wrong that for decades did incalculable social and economic damage to one side of the tracks, while fully benefiting the other.

Some people may say "too bad for your parents and your grandparents, I had nothing to do with that", but they'd be the same people who benefited from the privilege afforded to their parents and grandparents. Of course, "too bad" works both ways.
This makes sense as a generality but it is built on the premise that Bob is actually running the race.
 
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Farb

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Well, since we are playing hypotheticals, what is Al's friends talked Al into not running the race, and just walked over and robbed Bob before the race started? Or, better yet, what is Al's friends just shot Al before the race because of a turf war?

Fun playing hypothetical.
 

wardorican

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Well, since we are playing hypotheticals, what is Al's friends talked Al into not running the race, and just walked over and robbed Bob before the race started? Or, better yet, what is Al's friends just shot Al before the race because of a turf war?

Fun playing hypothetical.
You just can't help yourself, can you?
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Well, since we are playing hypotheticals, what is Al's friends talked Al into not running the race, and just walked over and robbed Bob before the race started? Or, better yet, what is Al's friends just shot Al before the race because of a turf war?

Fun playing hypothetical.

I thought y'all were playing metaphors, not hypotheticals. I think @SystemShock metaphor is a decent one to explain why many black American's are economically behind most white American's (in terms of net worth and education). I'm not sure your metaphor works, would you care to explain it -- why would Al's friends shoot him? I thought they were friends?
 

B4YOU

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Discriminating against race and gender for decades, thus trapping people in harsh, disadvantageous social and economic conditions for generations, creates animosity too. "Local" and "small" don't address the issue.
Adding to the overall animosity of society doesn’t seem like a good long term solution. I also see a big difference between government picking business winners vs. helping individuals and communities.

Would you agree that DBE policies are discriminatory? Do you agree with the ideas that both race and gender are at least partly social constructs?

If these are true, then why use DBE policy when the legacies of historical discrimination have clear, measurable consequences? We can use income inequality, health equity, graduation rates, crime, single parent household, etc. to target individuals and areas that need assistance. By using metrics not tied to gender or race, you don’t discriminate. If it helps poor whites, then good.

Look at who is voting for the GOP—non-college educated white males. If you institutionally discriminate against the bottom rung of a group that feels like power and status is slipping away, then you will give justification to their radicalization.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I will say, I don't like comparing life to a race though... that implies only one winner and if someone else wins then that means you lose.

In a properly functioning capitalist society, it isn't winner take all, and helping someone else out, does not mean less for you. So, working to mitigate past wrongs done on the black community does not actually harm the white community as a whole. That's one of the big problems with this debate... it's framed to pit people against each other, and a lot of it is driven by fear that rectifying the wrongs of the past will mean that whites will suffer.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Adding to the overall animosity of society doesn’t seem like a good long term solution. I also see a big difference between government picking business winners vs. helping individuals and communities.

Would you agree that DBE policies are discriminatory? Do you agree with the ideas that both race and gender are at least partly social constructs?

If these are true, then why use DBE policy when the legacies of historical discrimination have clear, measurable consequences? We can use income inequality, health equity, graduation rates, crime, single parent household, etc. to target individuals and areas that need assistance. By using metrics not tied to gender or race, you don’t discriminate. If it helps poor whites, then good.

Look at who is voting for the GOP—non-college educated white males. If you institutionally discriminate against the bottom rung of a group that feels like power and status is slipping away, then you will give justification to their radicalization.

I get what you're saying, and I think a lot of it is valid. Targeting poor people instead of targeting a specific race, will still disproportionately help minorities since they are disproportionately poor.

However, an important thing to consider I think, is making a specific point to make amends for past wrongs. We cannot really move forward on race until we actually consciously, specifically acknowledge that what this country did was wrong, that we are sorry, that we will make amends and we will never do it again. And the black community will need to hear that apology, recognize it as sincere, and accept it.
 
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Farb

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I thought y'all were playing metaphors, not hypotheticals. I think @SystemShock metaphor is a decent one to explain why many black American's are economically behind most white American's (in terms of net worth and education). I'm not sure your metaphor works, would you care to explain it -- why would Al's friends shoot him? I thought they were friends?
Why would Al's friends hang Bob's from a tree, they are there to watch a race? Why would Bob be denied to participate in the race? Lots of questions.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Why would Al's friends hang Bob's from a tree, they are there to watch a race? Why would Bob be denied to participate in the race? Lots of questions.

I feel like you are being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you aren't - black Americans were routinely denied participation in our economy for decades. Black Americans were also lynched. That was the metaphor.
 
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Farb

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I get what you're saying, and I think a lot of it is valid. Targeting poor people instead of targeting a specific race, will still disproportionately help minorities since they are disproportionately poor.

However, an important thing to consider I think, is making a specific point to make amends for past wrongs. We cannot really move forward on race until we actually consciously, specifically acknowledge that what this country did was wrong, that we are sorry, that we will make amends and we will never do it again. And the black community will need to hear that apology, recognize it as sincere, and accept it.
I think that is the main problem. We fought a war against each other to correct the wrong. Of course slavery is wrong. I am not sure about this, but western civilization is the only culture/Civ to not have slavery even in todays world. So this guilt that is demanded and if not given, forced upon us will make most American's pull back. Just a natural response. I know I am a white supremist racist nazi, I am fine with that, but the easy thing you guys tend to do is make this entire left ideology of white and western guilt a race thing and that is proving to be false. I personally know several black and brown and women that are repulsed by this, especially in the church communities. There are several black leaders that are speaking out against this and it will only grow as more people get fed up with it especially as it is creeping (actually herded) into our school system.
 

V Chip

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However, an important thing to consider I think, is making a specific point to make amends for past wrongs. We cannot really move forward on race until we actually consciously, specifically acknowledge that what this country did was wrong, that we are sorry, that we will make amends and we will never do it again. And the black community will need to hear that apology, recognize it as sincere, and accept it.
Get outta here with that CRT talk. Lucky you're not a teacher; you'd be arrested for talking that shirt in many states now.
 

SystemShock

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Why would Al's friends hang Bob's from a tree, they are there to watch a race? Why would Bob be denied to participate in the race? Lots of questions.

Maybe if you had actually posted what you implied in your response to my metaphor...
 

SystemShock

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Adding to the overall animosity of society doesn’t seem like a good long term solution.
Sure. Maybe I punch you in the face and kill your dog... then I tell you "hey, let's not add to the animosity. Let's pretend nothing happened and go on with our lives in harmony..."
I also see a big difference between government picking business winners vs. helping individuals and communities.
Would've been nice if that would've happened in the 1800's to 1900's.
Would you agree that DBE policies are discriminatory? Do you agree with the ideas that both race and gender are at least partly social constructs?
Race and gender are social constructs, however, those very social constructs have been used to discriminate and oppress people who fall within those social constructs.
If these are true, then why use DBE policy when the legacies of historical discrimination have clear, measurable consequences? We can use income inequality, health equity, graduation rates, crime, single parent household, etc. to target individuals and areas that need assistance. By using metrics not tied to gender or race, you don’t discriminate. If it helps poor whites, then good.
That's great, but again, people who fall into certain race and/or gender classification have been discriminated against and/or oppressed because of their race/gender. I guess we all should forgive and forget ... well, not all of us, just those who were discriminated against and oppressed
Look at who is voting for the GOP—non-college educated white males.
Perhaps we should educate them...
 

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