All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (1 Viewer)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[el caliente]

You and I have a difference of opinion here. Lying to people about a vaccine or about a deadly pandemic and increasing their odds for dying or being seriously ill, as well as clogging up the health care system so that regular illnesses cannot be treated is scum of the earth behavior. It’s damn near sociopathic. Not something that a moral, ethical person would do. So it’s easy to think badly of them. They’re horrible people.

Wether you consider what they said right, or wrong, there is a beauty in free agency. They could tell people that the sky is falling, but they can’t prevent you from looking up to see for yourself.

Is there a difference between folks taking up a hospital bed because they refused getting jab, as opposed to someone taking up a hospital bed because they decided to drink and drive (and ended up around a light pole)? Or someone taking up a hospital bed because of a lifetime of poor eating habits leaving them with heart problems? Or someone taking up a bed because they decided to enjoy too much booger sugar?

Call me cavalier, but people do a lot of things that cause them to end up in a hospital bed, and I’m not fit to be the guy drawing a line as to who deserves that bed, and who doesn’t. I’m just glad that doctors are making an honest living.

 

[brandon]

Is there a difference between folks taking up a hospital bed because they refused getting jab, as opposed to someone taking up a hospital bed because they decided to drink and drive (and ended up around a light pole)? Or someone taking up a hospital bed because of a lifetime of poor eating habits leaving them with heart problems? Or someone taking up a bed because they decided to enjoy too much booger sugar?

Yes.

Drunk driving and snorting blow aren’t contagious and leading to overwhelmed hospitals.

Also, there’s no disinformation campaigns suggesting that drunk driving and the dangers of cocaine use are hoaxes.

 

[el caliente]

Yes.

Drunk driving and snorting blow aren’t contagious and leading to overwhelmed hospitals.

Also, there’s no disinformation campaigns suggesting that drunk driving and the dangers of cocaine use are hoaxes.

So you are going to give the bed to the drunk driver, the person that overdosed, or the person that has been living an unfit lifestyle over the person that didn’t get vaccinated?

I’m just wondering, does deserve the bed more than the other? They all made (what are perceive to be) poor life choices, and all are occupying hospital beds. So who is getting the boot from Brandon’s Hospital?

 

[brandon]

So you are going to give the bed to the drunk driver, the person that overdosed, or the person that has been living an unfit lifestyle over the person that didn’t get vaccinated?

No, they can all have beds right up until the wave leads to bed shortages.

Then we triage based on who’s more likely to survive.

But keep in mind that the wave was caused by the people who didn’t get vaccinated, so a bed that would have been available to help the drug user or drunk driver is now not there.

So not only are the unvaccinated killing other unvaccinated, they’re also killing drunk drivers and drug users who would have otherwise survived.

So yea, keep coddling them in Caliente’s Hospital of Favoring Idiots.

 

[Taurus]

Still, how are you going to blame elected officials for blowing smoke up your arse about Covid? People have free agency. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Because dealing with overarching crises like a global pandemic is the President's job. Mobilizing forces, getting equipment, LEADING the nation in our response. Hell yes I'm going to blame elected officials for failure to do their jobs. Abso-damn-lutely.

 

[MT15]

Wether you consider what they said right, or wrong, there is a beauty in free agency. They could tell people that the sky is falling, but they can’t prevent you from looking up to see for yourself.

Is there a difference between folks taking up a hospital bed because they refused getting jab, as opposed to someone taking up a hospital bed because they decided to drink and drive (and ended up around a light pole)? Or someone taking up a hospital bed because of a lifetime of poor eating habits leaving them with heart problems? Or someone taking up a bed because they decided to enjoy too much booger sugar?

Call me cavalier, but people do a lot of things that cause them to end up in a hospital bed, and I’m not fit to be the guy drawing a line as to who deserves that bed, and who doesn’t. I’m just glad that doctors are making an honest living.

Very faulty reasoning, and you are clearly coming down on the side of the cheat, and the swindler. You seem to be excusing their actions and placing all blame on the swindled.

 

[MT15]

So you are going to give the bed to the drunk driver, the person that overdosed, or the person that has been living an unfit lifestyle over the person that didn’t get vaccinated?

I’m just wondering, does deserve the bed more than the other? They all made (what are perceive to be) poor life choices, and all are occupying hospital beds. So who is getting the boot from Brandon’s Hospital?

This never happened. It was basically first come, first served. And whoever had the least perceived need was discharged to make room for whoever was in worse shape. Because in the medical field they don’t make judgements, they try their best to save everyone. But the injustice is felt by the people providing the care and it causes real emotional trauma.

And yes i sure do find you exceedingly cavalier about the real tragedies. This wasn’t some kind of game. There were real deaths directly caused by immoral politicians and media personalities who knew better, who took the vaccine themselves, but decided to project an anti-vax attitude. Who decided to tell people that this virus was “nothing to worry about”. My neighbor’s husband is lost without his wife. Talking to him is painful, his pain is visceral.

Sorry if my judgement of you seems harsh. When people you know die in part due to disinformation by people (who did so on purpose), it kinda colors your opinions.

 

[UriUT]

So you are going to give the bed to the drunk driver, the person that overdosed, or the person that has been living an unfit lifestyle over the person that didn’t get vaccinated?

I’m just wondering, does deserve the bed more than the other? They all made (what are perceive to be) poor life choices, and all are occupying hospital beds. So who is getting the boot from Brandon’s Hospital?

You are directing this hypothetical towards the wrong profession. The medical profession will not deny service or "beds" to anyone. As Brandon has stated, their time and resources has limitations. And the stupidity of a section of the population only stresses that resource further to the point when they have to triage. What I think you are asking is a person's individual right to live stupidly as they please. No, we live in a connected society and under the rule of law. Individual freedom isn't unlimited, however libertarian you are. In your example, we, as a society have already determined that drunk driving is a no no. We have severe punitive laws for it. We have seat belt laws to protect the passengers, child seats etc and if caught will be levied fines. Notice that drunk driving penalties are more costly than not buckling up? It can cause harm to others.

I don't even know why the covid vaccine is some hill to die on. Measles, Polio, Hep, etc are already mandatory. Did you know that a newborn is required to be vaccinated with the hep vaccine at birth??? And 2 more w/in the first year give or take? And what's astounding is that if you understand vaccine physiology, it's the reason why the measles and polio are virtually non existent because of it's universal acceptance. There weren't any immature adults spreading lies. And yes, a highly infectious disease like tuberculosis is required by law to be recorded and reported to the government.

So no, individual freedom isn't absolute. You cannot be stupid if it hurts someone else. Have hiv and knowingly have intercourse with someone? Try that out.

 

[el caliente]

No, they can all have beds right up until the wave leads to bed shortages.

Then we triage based on who’s more likely to survive.

But keep in mind that the wave was caused by the people who didn’t get vaccinated, so a bed that would have been available to help the drug user or drunk driver is now not there.

So not only are the unvaccinated killing other unvaccinated, they’re also killing drunk drivers and drug users who would have otherwise survived.

So yea, keep coddling them in Caliente’s Hospital of Favoring Idiots.

So the order of who gets the bed goes drunk driver (first), then the person who overdosed, and finally to the person who didn’t get the vaccine?

I believe your triage system is ideal. I don’t believe in throwing good money after bad. Allow those with the highest chance of survival to get those beds, or heck put more beds into Caliente’s hospital.

Because dealing with overarching crises like a global pandemic is the President's job. Mobilizing forces, getting equipment, LEADING the nation in our response. Hell yes I'm going to blame elected officials for failure to do their jobs. Abso-damn-lutely.

I’m not sure who you are directing this at. Can you be more specific? Are we talking MGT, Harris, the Manchurian Candidate? If y’all are going to blame politicians for people’s poor decision making, then y’all better start voting in better candidates (I didn’t vote for any of these clowns, and I’m adult enough to know when a politician doesn’t have my best interest at heart).

Very faulty reasoning, and you are clearly coming down on the side of the cheat, and the swindler. You seem to be excusing their actions and placing all blame on the swindled.

Are we all adults here? Should we bring back the Literacy Test at the poll? I have no problem with people getting upset and joining a class action law suit, when the masses have been wronged as consumers. But saying you got swindled by a politician? Vote them out, for not fulfilling campaign promises.

This never happened. It was basically first come, first served. And whoever had the least perceived need was discharged to make room for whoever was in worse shape. Because in the medical field they don’t make judgements, they try their best to save everyone. But the injustice is felt by the people providing the care and it causes real emotional trauma.

And yes i sure do find you exceedingly cavalier about the real tragedies. This wasn’t some kind of game. There were real deaths directly caused by immoral politicians and media personalities who knew better, who took the vaccine themselves, but decided to project an anti-vax attitude. Who decided to tell people that this virus was “nothing to worry about”. My neighbor’s husband is lost without his wife. Talking to him is painful, his pain is visceral.

Sorry if my judgement of you seems harsh. When people you know die in part due to disinformation by people (who did so on purpose), it kinda colors your opinions.

I am not sure what never happened. I need to know what I am being accused of fabricating.

I don’t mind what your judgment of me is, I have kids, you couldn’t tell me anything that could hurt me. Lol.

You are directing this hypothetical towards the wrong profession. The medical profession will not deny service or "beds" to anyone. As Brandon has stated, their time and resources has limitations. And the stupidity of a section of the population only stresses that resource further to the point when they have to triage. What I think you are asking is a person's individual right to live stupidly as they please. No, we live in a connected society and under the rule of law. Individual freedom isn't unlimited, however libertarian you are. In your example, we, as a society have already determined that drunk driving is a no no. We have severe punitive laws for it. We have seat belt laws to protect the passengers, child seats etc and if caught will be levied fines. Notice that drunk driving penalties are more costly than not buckling up? It can cause harm to others.

I don't even know why the covid vaccine is some hill to die on. Measles, Polio, Hep, etc are already mandatory. Did you know that a newborn is required to be vaccinated with the hep vaccine at birth??? And 2 more w/in the first year give or take? And what's astounding is that if you understand vaccine physiology, it's the reason why the measles and polio are virtually non existent because of it's universal acceptance. There weren't any immature adults spreading lies. And yes, a highly infectious disease like tuberculosis is required by law to be recorded and reported to the government.

So no, individual freedom isn't absolute. You cannot be stupid if it hurts someone else. Have hiv and knowingly have intercourse with someone? Try that out.

My comment wasn’t directed at someone in hospital management (unless Brandon is in hospital management). My comment was directed at someone who can easily place one life above another.

Individual freedom isn’t absolute, but your freedom to choose (to get vaccinated or not) is your own. To blame a politician for the reason people are vaccinated or not is an odd hill to die on. If you can vote, then you are old enough to understand that politicians aren’t your friends.

 

[UriUT]

So goes beds for the drunk driver, then the person who overdosed, and then the person who didn’t get the vaccine?

I believe your triage system is ideal. I don’t believe in throwing good money after bad. Allow those with the highest chance of survival to get those beds, or heck…get more beds into Caliente’s hospital.

I’m not sure who you are directing this at. Can you be more specific? Are we talking MGT, Harris, the Manchurian Candidate? If y’all are going to blame politicians for people not getting vaccinated, then y’all better start voting in better candidates (I didn’t vote for any of these clowns, and I’m adult enough to know when a politician doesn’t have my best interest at heart).

Are we all adults here? Should we bring back the Literacy Test at the poll? I have no problem with people getting upset and joining a class action law suit, when the masses have been wronged as consumers. But saying you got swindled by a politician? Vote them out, for not fulfilling campaign promises.

I am not sure what never happened. I need to know what I am being accused of fabricating.

I don’t mind what your judgment of me is, I have kids, you couldn’t tell me anything that could hurt me. Lol.

My comment wasn’t directed at someone in hospital management (unless Brandon is in hospital management). My comment was directed at someone who can easily place one life above another.

Individual freedom isn’t absolute, but your freedom to choose (to get vaccinated or not) is your own. To blame a politician for the reason people are vaccinated or not is an odd hill to die on. If you can vote, then you are old enough to understand that politicians aren’t your friends.

You are missing the point again. Take TB for example. Highly infectious and data supports it. You cannot go around with it because a literal cough can infect another person. Do you think it wise that a person like that gets to walk around like it's nothing? I'll answer, no. In the old days, they will isolate you in some place and you literally lose your freedom to leave. LA did it, I forget when and where. MDs are required to record and report that today. And I know in NYC they actually make sure you are following your treatment regiment. I am less familiar w/ LA. Why? TB is highly adaptable. Bacteria are quickly adapting to our antibiotics and that may be a huge storm brewing for us once none of our antibiotics will work for even the simplest of infection. There comes a time when your personal freedom is meaningless and you are required to take the vaccine. It's in everyone's interest. Imagine how many lives could've been saved if we didn't have this anti-intellectual pseudo movement that tells u your personal freedom is more important than someone else's life. It worked with the covid vaccine because folks like you think it's some crusade when it's the easiest thing to do.

Edit: After reading this, it seems like I'm suggesting that tb is as transmittable as covid. It isn't. I got carried away here.

 

[el caliente]

You are missing the point again. Take TB for example. Highly infectious and data supports it. You cannot go around with it because a literal cough can infect another person. Do you think it wise that a person like that gets to walk around like it's nothing? I'll answer, no. In the old days, they will isolate you in some place and you literally lose your freedom to leave. LA did it, I forget when and where. MDs are required to record and report that today. And I know in NYC they actually make sure you are following your treatment regiment. I am less familiar w/ LA. Why? TB is highly adaptable. Bacteria are quickly adapting to our antibiotics and that may be a huge storm brewing for us once none of our antibiotics will work for even the simplest of infection. There comes a time when your personal freedom is meaningless and you are required to take the vaccine. It's in everyone's interest. Imagine how many lives could've been saved if we didn't have this anti-intellectual pseudo movement that tells u your personal freedom is more important than someone else's life. It worked with the covid vaccine because folks like you think it's some crusade when it's the easiest thing to do.

I’m not on a crusade. I’m but a simple vaccinated Who Dat, that enjoys shrimp poboys (from Danny and Clyde’s or Bears), jogging, and my freedoms. I have little time for crusades.

Get a vaccine, don’t get a vaccine, that’s on you. A Politician shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of others, and if they are to be held accountable do it in the voting booth.

 

[UriUT]

Politicians are responsible. Why are we obfuscating their jobs? They implement the policies that reduces harm to society. Or should...I don't know what the republicans are doing nowadays. This vaccine could've saved more lives. And why are we dismissing the disinformation that these solidly established politicians are spreading? To their own voter's death w/o repercussion, no less? Imagine if folks have your attitude w/ the measles or polio. I can't fathom if those viruses had time to adapt and mutated. These public healthcare issues shouldn't be a personal choice. Again, why do we wear seatbelts and just casually do it every day? How is that different than a shot that's takes a simple jab? Give me the evidence that the vaccine is ineffective at reducing transmission, mortality, or hospital stay, and we'll talk. I mean we're not talking about stupid people losing their fingers shooting fireworks. We are talking about a virus that takes lives away.

Get a vaccine, don’t get a vaccine, that’s on you.

I'm not the only that have addressed this already. There comes a time when personal choice isn't on you, especially when evidence suggest there are clear benefits.

 

[el caliente]

Politicians are responsible. Why are we obfuscating their jobs? They implement the policies that reduces harm to society. Or should...I don't know what the republicans are doing nowadays. This vaccine could've saved more lives. And why are we dismissing the disinformation that these solidly established politicians are spreading? To their own voter's death w/o repercussion, no less? Imagine if folks have your attitude w/ the measles or polio. I can't fathom if those viruses had time to adapt and mutated. These public healthcare issues shouldn't be a personal choice. Again, why do we wear seatbelts and just casually do it every day? How is that different than a shot that's takes a simple jab? Give me the evidence that the vaccine is ineffective at reducing transmission, mortality, or hospital stay, and we'll talk. I mean we're not talking about stupid people losing their fingers shooting fireworks. We are talking about a virus that takes lives away.


I'm not the only that have addressed this already. There comes a time when personal choice isn't on you, especially when evidence suggest there are clear benefits.

Seems like you are complaining about the wrong people. Too few beds? Short on staff to handle folks with Covid? Why is it on Joe, Nancy, or Lindsey to fix people’s faulty decision making skills? They didn’t put themselves in power? Do we need to strip folks of their voting rights so these politicians can’t harm people anymore?

Perhaps we need to start looking outside of DC. Perhaps the hospital should pass on adding on that new $20M gym/health center, and build out a new wing to the hospital to add more beds? Perhaps the boards could drop their passing scores by a point (or however they pass individuals) in order to get more doctors or nurses in the door? If this problem isn’t going anywhere, we better start revisiting how we look at healthcare services, and how we can better handle this.

Obviously the easiest thing to do would be to tie down the unvaccinated folks, hit them with socks full of bars of soap until they pass out (Full Metal Jacket style), and then vaccinating them all, but that’s just not practical. I mean, where are we going to get all those bars of soap?

 

[MT15]

I’m not on a crusade. I’m but a simple vaccinated Who Dat, that enjoys shrimp poboys (from Danny and Clyde’s or Bears), jogging, and my freedoms. I have little time for crusades.

Get a vaccine, don’t get a vaccine, that’s on you. A Politician shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of others, and if they are to be held accountable do it in the voting booth.

And yet, here you are crusading for people in powerful positions who say lies that are irresponsible and immoral.

Your idea that a hospital takes into account how a person got sick when deciding their treatment doesn’t ever happen. You are the one proposing it, and then using thus idea to try to make others feel bad. (Answering your other post)

No one has proposed forcing people to be vaccinated. And no one has proposed arresting the Peice of work politicians and media types who willfully pushed misinformation that got people killed. But they damn sure need to be called out for the scum that they are. Not defended.

The fact that you are defending them says to me that you think what they did was fine.

 

[el caliente]

And yet, here you are crusading for people in powerful positions who say lies that are irresponsible and immoral.

Your idea that a hospital takes into account how a person got sick when deciding their treatment doesn’t ever happen. You are the one proposing it, and then using thus idea to try to make others feel bad. (Answering your other post)

No one has proposed forcing people to be vaccinated. And no one has proposed arresting the Peice of work politicians and media types who willfully pushed misinformation that got people killed. But they damn sure need to be called out for the scum that they are. Not defended.

The fact that you are defending them says to me that you think what they did was fine.

I am still at a loss here as to what I am accused of saying hospitals do. Did I say hospitals do something when deciding who gets treatment? I did ask in a hypothetical, when various parties are sick (and beds are limited) who should get the bed, but that isn’t me speaking as to the practices of hospitals. I don’t know how hospitals are run, nor have I said that I do. Hell, of the posts presented on the topic, mine was the least descriptive of how hospitals are run, so you might be getting my post confused with someon else’s.

I’m not crusading for anyone. Nor am I condoning what has been said. I’m saying that if you are too stupid to believe a politician, then that’s on you. Some self accountability can go a long way, and the lack of it has us in the jam we are currently in.

DC is Hollywood for ugly people, and the people there are 12x as fake. Nobody in that city is operating for any other reason than to get re-elected. Remember that when your favorite politician says “I’m not taking Trump’s rushed vaccine.” Or “marijuana is a gateway drug.” All of these clowns have an agenda, and it’s best not to follow their lead.

So go ahead, call them out, make your voice heard. The most effective way to do that though is in the voting booth.

 

[UriUT]

Seems like you are complaining about the wrong people. Too few beds? Short on staff to handle folks with Covid? Why is it on Joe, Nancy, or Lindsey to fix people’s faulty decision making skills? They didn’t put themselves in power? Do we need to strip folks of their voting rights so these politicians can’t harm people anymore?

Perhaps we need to start looking outside of DC. Perhaps the hospital should pass on adding on that new $20M gym/health center, and build out a new wing to the hospital to add more beds? Perhaps the boards could drop their passing scores by a point (or however they pass individuals) in order to get more doctors or nurses in the door? If this problem isn’t going anywhere, we better start revisiting how we look at healthcare services, and how we can better handle this.

Obviously the easiest thing to do would be to tie down the unvaccinated folks, hit them with socks full of bars of soap until they pass out (Full Metal Jacket style), and then vaccinating them all, but that’s just not practical. I mean, where are we going to get all those bars of soap?

Did I make the argument that politicians can predict pandemics and setup budgets like they're some fortune teller? Do you not understand the arguments that a hospitals have set budget, staff, and resources to handle the daily medical emergencies for that community? And the hospitals can and do adapt (add more beds, divert other spaces and staff, etc), but there are limitations to doing that?

And it's quite apparent your worldview when it comes to government action. You seem to think that the only way to have folks compelled to some action is through violence. I wonder, did we smack soap to have universal polio vaccines? Maybe we didn't have politicians telling the population telling them that the vaccines had some mind controlling voodoo in it. Or maybe we didn't have dishonest politicians pushing some bs freedom argument so they can get attention and consolidate power. Perhaps, those politicians understood the benefits of a vaccine and pushed a cohesive message to encourage folks to take the vaccine.

 

[el caliente]

Did I make the argument that politicians can predict pandemics and setup budgets like they're some fortune teller? Do you not understand the arguments that a hospitals have set budget, staff, and resources to handle the daily medical emergencies for that community? And the hospitals can and do adapt (add more beds, divert other spaces and staff, etc), but there are limitations to doing that?

And it's quite apparent your worldview when it comes to government action. You seem to think that the only way to have folks compelled to some action is through violence. I wonder, did we smack soap to have universal polio vaccines? Maybe we didn't have politicians telling the population telling them that the vaccines had some mind controlling voodoo in it. Or maybe we didn't have dishonest politicians pushing some bs freedom argument so they can get attention and consolidate power. Perhaps, those politicians understood the benefits of a vaccine and pushed a cohesive message to encourage folks to take the vaccine.

@MT15, by reading this post, I think you might be confusing me with UriUt (in regards to making claims as to how hospitals are run).

I think if we have learned one thing from Covid it’s flexibility. While budgets are set a year in advance, and for specific purposes, cash on hand is not. Cash on hand is typically used for investment purposes, or for emergencies (which I believe we both agree COVID has shown itself to he). Shifting cash to special projects such as adding more beds, or bringing in more medical professionals just seems too logical. I am all for learning what the limitations to that expansion are.

My comment regarding the sock and soap was more tongue in cheek. While I do believe you will farther with a gun and a smile (than with just a smile), forcing folks to get vaccinated with threats of violence isn’t the way.

I think we can both agree that politics have changed a lot since the polio vaccines were rolled out in 1955. And really, are we longing for the days when politicians were fighting against basic civil rights and proud McCarthyites (those things seem to still be going on, but I digress)? If anything, politicians then were just as jacked up then as they are now, and those politicians played to their bases just as much then as they do now.

 

[UriUT]

@MT15, by reading this post, I think you might be confusing me with UriUt (in regards to making claims as to how hospitals are run).

I think if we have learned one thing from Covid it’s flexibility. While budgets are set a year in advance, and for specific purposes, cash on hand is not. Cash on hand is typically used for investment purposes, or for emergencies (which I believe we both agree COVID has shown itself to he). Shifting cash to special projects such as adding more beds, or bringing in more medical professionals just seems too logical. I am all for learning what the limitations to that expansion are.

My comment regarding the sock and soap was more tongue in cheek. While I do believe you will farther when a gun and a smile (than with just a smile), forcing folks to get vaccinated with threats of violence isn’t the way.

I think we can both agree that politics have changed a lot since polio vaccines were rolled out in 1955. And really, are we longing for the days when politicians were fighting against basic civil rights and proud McCarthyites (those things seem to still be going on, but I digress)? If anything, politicians then were just as jacked up then as they are now, and those politicians played to their bases just as much then as they do now.

Wow you are good at dodging aren't you? You are the one that tried to pose some smart alec moral dilemma about who gets a hospital bed or not (who gets to live or not), never mind not understanding how hospital operates. You are the one that blames nancy, joe, or whomever is responsible for the lack of hospital beds.