All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Dragon]

I see your point. For example, if this pandemic had occurred after we occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, would their numbers be reflected in our numbers? No they wouldn't, but we would certainly be responsible to help them get vaccinations, since we've undermined their governments. Similarly, the West Bank's numbers shouldn't appear under Israel's numbers, but Israel has a responsibility to help. It should reflect badly on Israel if their dependents aren't being served. Palestinians should share some of the responsibility, but their occupiers should share the primary burden.

This is only partly a valid point. Remember that most of those who live in the occupied areas were born AFTER the occupation. This is no "temporary" measure, but something that has lasted so long (more than 50 years) that Israel is the de-facto ruling power there. So no this is not the same.

 

[DaveXA]

This is only partly a valid point. Remember that most of those who live in the occupied areas were born AFTER the occupation. This is no "temporary" measure, but something that has lasted so long (more than 50 years) that Israel is the de-facto ruling power there. So no this is not the same.

Be that as it may, they're still considered occupied and disputed territories. They've never been called Israel proper.

 

[Dragon]

Be that as it may, they're still considered occupied and disputed territories. They've never been called Israel proper.

So if you occupy something for 50+ years, the excuse for not providing equal medical care to those who live in the occupied areas (which btw Israel DOES consider part of their territory - even though most of the rest of the world dont) is that they "have never been called Israel proper"

 

[wardorican]

Can we just button up the Israel stuff with this?

Their vaccination rate is somewhat suspect based on the likelyhood of not including Palestinians, who live in the same geographic area. It's a screwed up situation.

Either way, it's not getting a shot in my arm slower or faster.

 

[SaintForLife]

I don't get the argument. I want to break down the numbers here.

So far Pfizer, and Moderna are saying they will have delivered a total of 220 million doses by the end of March. J&J is adding a total of 20 million. That's a total of 130 million Americans with vaccines manufactured. We know from polling that around 1/3 of all Americans say they probably won't get the vaccine. That's 60 million of the possible 200 million adults leaving a pool of 140 million willing vaccinated Americans.

Based on those numbers, I don't know why anyone is talking about delaying 1 dose. We don't even know what the upper range of daily vaccinated rate would be with unlimited supply, but hopefully we are about to find out. Based on the data that seems abundantly clear, the much bigger concern is the anti-vaxxers.

I also don't buy a second surge when the covid rates have plummeted 70% from their peak.

Our studies have shown that if we keep up the current vaccine efforts we’re doing now, by the end of March we will still have 30 million out of 54 million persons in this country over age 65 who have not had a drop of vaccine. Those people are going to be at high risk for this virus. And I think it's going to take off in early to mid-March. And we're gonna see that next big peak, and it will very possibly exceed what we saw in January.

On the new variants:

...They have fundamentally changed the game with this particular pandemic. And we have to respect them, we have to try to understand what they mean. I actually think I know less about these viruses today than I did six weeks ago.

The more we learn, the more questions we have about what's going to happen. I haven't even mentioned the other variants, one you mentioned, but also one called P.1 from Brazil or B.1.3.5 from South Africa, which have acquired part of one and two characteristics, more transmissibility is more serious illness. But what's really concerning is they've acquired a third bucket of opportunity. In other words, being able to evade the immune protection, at least to some degree from the vaccines or natural infection.

So expect we're going to see many, many more variants. There was a confusing article in the media just in the last two days about a series of new variants here in the United States. And the researchers that did the work were absolutely right on target, their message was correct. But they said these variants aren't causing us any unique problems, meaning that they weren't one of the three buckets, the media took that to mean variants don't cause problems. And I just come back to reaffirm, some of them are real big problems.

Michael Osterholm on how new COVID variants could change the pandemic's trajectory

As vaccinations continue, new variants of the virus are spreading. Scientists worry that the vaccine could be less effective against these mutations and that infection rates might rise again if one of these variants becomes the dominant strain.

www.mprnews.org

Experts warn against COVID-19 variants as states reopen

NEW YORK (AP) — As states lift mask rules and ease restrictions on restaurants and other businesses because of falling case numbers, public health officials say authorities are overlooking potentially more dangerous COVID-19 variants that are quietly spreading through the U.S.

apnews.com

Coronavirus infections across the US are still on the way down, and more Americans are getting vaccinated -- but variants could cause complications soon.

Several experts predicted Tuesday the highly contagious B.1.1.7 variant first detected in the UK is likely to fuel another surge of cases in just a matter of weeks.

It could result in more of a wave in, say, April or May than we would have expected otherwise," Trevor Bedford, of the University of Washington and the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, said during a briefing sponsored by the center. "But I still do suspect that things will be brought under control in the summer, and there will be very little virus circulating."

Experts worry variant-fueled Covid-19 surge may be weeks away but cases will likely fall again by summer | CNN

Coronavirus infections across the US are still on the way down, and more Americans are getting vaccinated – but variants could cause complications soon.

www.cnn.com

COVID variant could mean a brutal March for the US

We may be in the eye of the hurricane, with an expectation that a new wave or wall of infection is about to hit us.

thehill.com

 

[insidejob]

 

[DaveXA]

So if you occupy something for 50+ years, the excuse for not providing equal medical care to those who live in the occupied areas (which btw Israel DOES consider part of their territory - even though most of the rest of the world dont) is that they "have never been called Israel proper"

You apparently aren't understanding what I said. I never excused them for anything.

 

[Saintman2884]

Inside, but then again, thats just another example of Trump's unending "pettiness", vindictive narcissistic behavior and attitude towards some GOP leaders still around in power that would prefer he go fade away into magnanimity, obscurity, and leave the difficult issues of debating politics to the adults. It would be a more appropriate question for me to ask Chris Hayes if he really thinks Trump would ever propose, support such a wide-ranging Covid-19 stimulus relief package like this or does his " support" constitute a cynical, smartass game of snide, one upmanship by Mr. Agent Orange.

I disagree with Hayes on more then a few socio-political issues, but he's far from being a fool or an idiot, so I know what his answer would be.

 

[zztop]

I'm just going to put this here since there is some conversation. I won't copy/paste the entire article, but I know some won't be able to access it via the link.

Israel Gives Vaccine to Far-Off Allies, as Palestinians Wait (Published 2021)

The donations will go to nations like the Czech Republic and Honduras that pledged to move diplomats to Jerusalem. Critics say Israel has an obligation to inoculate Palestinians under its occupation.

www.nytimes.com

See more

On Tuesday, the governments of the Czech Republic and Honduras confirmed that Israel had promised them each 5,000 vaccine doses manufactured by Moderna. The Israeli news media reported that Hungary and Guatemala would be sent a similar number, but the Hungarian and Israeli governments declined to comment, while the Guatemalan government did not respond to a request for comment.

The donations are the latest example of a new expression of soft power: vaccine diplomacy, in which countries rich in vaccines seek to reward or sway those that have little access to them.

Jockeying for influence in Asia, China and India have donated thousands of vaccine doses to their neighbors. The United Arab Emirates has done the same for allies like Egypt. And last week, Israel even promised to buy tens of thousands of doses on behalf of the Syrian government, a longtime foe, in exchange for the return of an Israeli civilian detained in Syria.

The vaccines allocated Tuesday were given without conditions, but they tacitly reward recent gestures from the receiving countries that implicitly accept Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, which both Israelis and Palestinians consider their capital. Guatemala has moved its embassy to Jerusalem, while Honduras has pledged to do so. Hungary has set up a trade mission in Jerusalem, while the Czech Republic has promised to open a diplomatic office there.

Israel has given at least one shot of the two-dose, Pfizer-manufactured vaccine to just over half its own population of 9 million — including to people living in Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories — making it the world leader in vaccine rollouts. That has left the Israeli government able to bolster its international relationships with its surplus supply of Moderna vaccines.

But the move has angered Palestinians because it suggests that Israel’s allies are of greater priority than the Palestinians living under Israeli control in the occupied territories, almost all of whom have yet to receive a vaccine.

Israel has pledged at least twice as many doses to faraway countries as it has so far promised to the nearly 5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

edit: put it under a spoiler tag so it doesn't make my post too long

 

[J-DONK]

Our studies have shown that if we keep up the current vaccine efforts we’re doing now, by the end of March we will still have 30 million out of 54 million persons in this country over age 65 who have not had a drop of vaccine.

This is ultimately where we differ, and our outlooks are so dissimilar. You think the daily vaccination rates won't really change with a massively projected supply increase. I do think the vaccination rates are going to increase dramatically with the increase of supply. We will see who is right over the next month.

 

[superchuck500]

 

[DaveXA]

What am I missing?

 

[SaintForLife]

This is ultimately where we differ, and our outlooks are so dissimilar. You think the daily vaccination rates won't really change with a massively projected supply increase. I do think the vaccination rates are going to increase dramatically with the increase of supply. We will see who is right over the next month.

It's fine to disagree, but I'm basing my opinion on the experts and you seem to be basing your opinion strictly on increased vaccine supply. What makes you think we will have enough people to administer the vaccine at increasing levels when we are currently still struggling to meet what's needed?

 

[brandon]

It's fine to disagree, but I'm basing my opinion on the experts and you seem to be basing your opinion strictly on increased vaccine supply. What makes you think we will have enough people to administer the vaccine at increasing levels when we are currently still struggling to meet what's needed?

Because we are currently struggling to meet what’s needed due to a lack of supply, not a lack of manpower.

 

[zztop]

Priorities

MSN

www.msn.com

Several Republican lawmakers said they could not attend Congress on Friday to vote for the coronavirus stimulus package due to the pandemic, but were due to appear in-person at the conservative conference taking place in Orlando, Florida, this weekend.

 

[zztop]

So...I'm not sure if this is a form of protest, or what

 

[SaintForLife]

The US risks a fourth surge of COVID-19 cases if people don't follow public-health recommendations, according to the top official at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

"Please hear me clearly: At this level of cases, with variants spreading, we stand to completely lose the hard-earned ground we have gained," Dr. Rochelle Walensky said at a White House press briefing on Monday.

The head of the CDC warned of a 'potential 4th surge' of COVID-19 cases, despite progress with vaccine rollouts

Vaccination is the way out of the pandemic, but people must keep following CDC recommendations, Dr. Rochelle Walensky said on Monday.

www.businessinsider.com

It does appear that another Covid spike is coming before we can get enough people vaccinated.

 

[brandon]

The US risks a fourth surge of COVID-19 cases if people don't follow public-health recommendations, according to the top official at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

"Please hear me clearly: At this level of cases, with variants spreading, we stand to completely lose the hard-earned ground we have gained," Dr. Rochelle Walensky said at a White House press briefing on Monday.

The head of the CDC warned of a 'potential 4th surge' of COVID-19 cases, despite progress with vaccine rollouts

Vaccination is the way out of the pandemic, but people must keep following CDC recommendations, Dr. Rochelle Walensky said on Monday.

www.businessinsider.com

It does appear that another Covid spike is coming before we can get enough people vaccinated.

Meanwhile Tate Reeves just removed all mask mandates in Mississippi (except for k-12) and businesses are at full capacity.