All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (1 Viewer)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[DaveXA]

It is part of the discussion when a graphic is presented that shows Israel way ahead of everyone in covid vaccines, and yet, they are pulling a Cuomo and not counting the Palestinians they oppress in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Sure, but is Gaza/West Bank Israel or no? Are those areas citizens of Israel? I mean, it seems like there are open questions about how one defines Israel proper.

That said, I think Israel should be willing to provide equitable humanitarian assistance to Palestinians if the Palestinians need/want the help.

 

[SystemShock]

Sure, but is Gaza/West Bank Israel or no? Are those areas citizens of Israel? I mean, it seems like there are open questions about how one defines Israel proper.

Who controls the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?

 

[MT15]

Israel should be vaccinating in areas they control. Full stop.

 

[DaveXA]

Who controls the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?

Israel does if I understand correctly, but doesn't those areas have their own governments, medical facilities and security? I get that their resources are limited and they probably would need to rely on assistance from Israel, but people on those areas aren't citizens of Israel? Is that correct, or no?

 

[DaveXA]

Israel should be vaccinating in areas they control. Full stop.

Yes, well, ideally, but are they actually able to? And I don't mean financially, or even politically, but rather, logistics wise. I'd hope so, but no idea what the situation is on the ground there.

 

[RobF]

Israel should be vaccinating in areas they control. Full stop.

Yes. It's not quite right to say they're only vaccinating Jewish people - Arab Israelis are being vaccinated for example - but they haven't been offering vaccination to Palestinians and have reportedly even blocked vaccines from entering Gaza (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-vaccines-from-entering-gaza-say-palestinians).

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[Lapaz]

That CIDRAP Viewpoint article contained this tidbit:
"Compared with 5- to 17-year-olds, older individuals had a 35-fold, 55-fold, and 80-fold increase in hospitalizations among individuals ranging from 65 to 74 years, 75 to 84 years, and 85 years and older, respectively, and a 1,100-fold, 2,800-fold, and 7,900-fold increase in deaths."

Those Covid-19 stats make me think that we're living in a world reminiscent of Star Trek episodes where they found societies composed only of children, because as soon as you became an adult, you'd get a disease and die. In this case, it's not becoming an adult that kills you. It's becoming a retiree. We're becoming a society with far fewer elderly. This is going to help social security and medicare stay solvent. Makes me wonder.

 

[J-DONK]

I don't get the argument. I want to break down the numbers here.

So far Pfizer, and Moderna are saying they will have delivered a total of 220 million doses by the end of March. J&J is adding a total of 20 million. That's a total of 130 million Americans with vaccines manufactured. We know from polling that around 1/3 of all Americans say they probably won't get the vaccine. That's 60 million of the possible 200 million adults leaving a pool of 140 million willing vaccinated Americans.

Based on those numbers, I don't know why anyone is talking about delaying 1 dose. We don't even know what the upper range of daily vaccinated rate would be with unlimited supply, but hopefully we are about to find out. Based on the data that seems abundantly clear, the much bigger concern is the anti-vaxxers.

I also don't buy a second surge when the covid rates have plummeted 70% from their peak.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

The state still has a lot of logistical issues they need to fix, but I will give them credit for trying to get does out. We just received another 100 first doses that weren't requested. It's driving my CEO crazy.

 

[MT15]

Osterholm seems to be a bit of an outlier with his opinion on skipping second doses.

 

[Taurus]

That CIDRAP Viewpoint article contained this tidbit:
"Compared with 5- to 17-year-olds, older individuals had a 35-fold, 55-fold, and 80-fold increase in hospitalizations among individuals ranging from 65 to 74 years, 75 to 84 years, and 85 years and older, respectively, and a 1,100-fold, 2,800-fold, and 7,900-fold increase in deaths."

Those Covid-19 stats make me think that we're living in a world reminiscent of Star Trek episodes where they found societies composed only of children, because as soon as you became an adult, you'd get a disease and die. In this case, it's not becoming an adult that kills you. It's becoming a retiree. We're becoming a society with far fewer elderly. This is going to help social security and medicare stay solvent. Makes me wonder.

But to make a real dent, Covid would have to kill millions of elderly.
So far, it's just making a ton of 'em sicker and more costly.

 

[Nebaghead]

Why is it so hard to even acknowledge the wrongdoings of Israel?

I’m Jewish and I support this.

 

[Dragon]

Israel does if I understand correctly, but doesn't those areas have their own governments, medical facilities and security? I get that their resources are limited and they probably would need to rely on assistance from Israel, but people on those areas aren't citizens of Israel? Is that correct, or no?

IT is OCCUPIED territory.. If an invader occupies an area then the occupier by international law are responsible for the safety of the people who lives there. You can't occupy an area, take a lot of their best farm land for settlements of your own citizents, impose strict import/export rules and then say "they have their own government they are responsible"

The "government" of the occupied areas have very little actual power except for what Israel allows them to have.

 

[DaveXA]

IT is OCCUPIED territory.. If an invader occupies an area then the occupier by international law are responsible for the safety of the people who lives there. You can't occupy an area, take a lot of their best farm land for settlements of your own citizents, impose strict import/export rules and then say "they have their own government they are responsible"

The "government" of the occupied areas have very little actual power except for what Israel allows them to have.

I appreciate the comments, but that's not really what I'm asking about or addressing. The crux of the discussion, to me, is whether the occupied territories are considered Israel for purposes of the chart we were discussing. Including those areas would change Israel's numbers. The question is whether Gaza and West Bank should be part of those numbers. What would be the justification for including disputed territories in the numbers? Maybe it's not that big a deal, idk.

Without question, Israel needs to provide humanitarian support and equal access to vaccines. Apparently, that's not happening and that's not fair to families and individuals who live there. That's all a different question though.

 

[Lapaz]

I appreciate the comments, but that's not really what I'm asking about or addressing. The crux of the discussion, to me, is whether the occupied territories are considered Israel for purposes of the chart we were discussing. Including those areas would change Israel's numbers. The question is whether Gaza and West Bank should be part of those numbers. What would be the justification for including disputed territories in the numbers? Maybe it's not that big a deal, idk.

Without question, Israel needs to provide humanitarian support and equal access to vaccines. Apparently, that's not happening and that's not fair to families and individuals who live there. That's all a different question though.

I see your point. For example, if this pandemic had occurred after we occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, would their numbers be reflected in our numbers? No they wouldn't, but we would certainly be responsible to help them get vaccinations, since we've undermined their governments. Similarly, the West Bank's numbers shouldn't appear under Israel's numbers, but Israel has a responsibility to help. It should reflect badly on Israel if their dependents aren't being served. Palestinians should share some of the responsibility, but their occupiers should share the primary burden.

 

[DaveXA]

I see your point. For example, if this pandemic had occurred after we occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, would their numbers be reflected in our numbers? No they wouldn't, but we would certainly be responsible to help them get vaccinations, since we've undermined their governments. Similarly, the West Bank's numbers shouldn't appear under Israel's numbers, but Israel has a responsibility to help. It should reflect badly on Israel if their dependents aren't being served. Palestinians should share some of the responsibility, but their occupiers should share the primary burden.

Indeed. Certainly the disparity in Israel's Covid numbers and those of the West Bank/Gaza should be indicative of the inequal access to vaccines and treatment of Covid. But yeah, the numbers should be separated out.

 

[insidejob]

I honestly don't care WHO vaccinates all residents of the Westbank and Gaza as long as they get vaccinated and aren't put at the end of the line if Israel is tasked with vaccinating them. You'd think that considering the history/climate of the relationship between Israel and Palestine that the UN would have stepped in to do it or at least designate an entity with no ties to either state to do it. I have zero doubt that the people in Israel who distribute/administer the vaccine will prioritize Jewish people over Muslims whenever they can do it as long as they can easily get away with it.