All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (5 Viewers)

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Maxp

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I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?
 

MT15

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Of course, just like everything this administration has done, it was sloppy and rife with errors and just plain lack of attention to details. The idea is sound, though.
 

efil4

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Of course, just like everything this administration has done, it was sloppy and rife with errors and just plain lack of attention to details. The idea is sound, though.
And that's just the NYE gala.
 

GrandAdmiral

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PPP could have been handled much better with some transparency. That was on purpose though. I really didn't like seeing tax exempt organizations , and foreign companies getting PPP payouts.
Can't say I agree with this. Tax exempt organizations took as much a hit as non-exempt organizations. Many health care facilities, like mine, suffered huge losses in the early stages of the pandemic and needed assistance as well because we couldn't shut down. Our outpatient encounters have returned to 80% of pre-shutdown numbers. Without the PPP, we would've gone through a serious RIF.
 

Saintamaniac

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Can't say I agree with this. Tax exempt organizations took as much a hit as non-exempt organizations. Many health care facilities, like mine, suffered huge losses in the early stages of the pandemic and needed assistance as well because we couldn't shut down. Our outpatient encounters have returned to 80% of pre-shutdown numbers. Without the PPP, we would've gone through a serious RIF.
I agree with J-Donk here. The money for PPP came from taxpayers. Tax exempt organizations did not contribute to the pot that those funds came from. At a minimum, for a tax exempt organization to have received tax payer funded assistance should've required said tax exempt organization to lose tax exemption for a time sufficient to repay a portion of the funds they received. That should have applied to businesses that end up with a 0 dollar tax liability as well. There's something fundamentally wrong for people who don't contribute to the common good to reap benefits while others who do contribute, don't receive anything.
 

Richard

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I agree with J-Donk here. The money for PPP came from taxpayers. Tax exempt organizations did not contribute to the pot that those funds came from. At a minimum, for a tax exempt organization to have received tax payer funded assistance should've required said tax exempt organization to lose tax exemption for a time sufficient to repay a portion of the funds they received. That should have applied to businesses that end up with a 0 dollar tax liability as well. There's something fundamentally wrong for people who don't contribute to the common good to reap benefits while others who do contribute, don't receive anything.
While a federal tax exemption does eliminate certain taxes, it does not absolve them of all taxes. But that's not really the point. You and J-Donk seem to equate the tax status of the organization/company with worthiness to participate in the PPP program. The money from the program goes to tax paying individuals in the form of salary/wages. The company or organization does benefit by being able to retain valued employees, but it isn't profit. The only way the loan is forgiven is if they continue to employ (and pay) those employees. It is in no way a windfall for the company or organization.

Why shouldn't tax exempt companies and non-profits participate in the PPP program? Do they not employ people that they have to pay? What do you think the impact to communities would be if the local charity hospital, rural electric company or agricultural cooperative had to lay off people during the pandemic because they couldn't afford to pay people? It really doesn't matter much what type of organization or company it is, if they employ people, they have reasons to want to retain those people. It is the people themselves, the ones who receives their paychecks thanks to the program, who are the true beneficiaries of the program.

Certainly there have been companies that have tried to defraud the program and circumvent its rules. Those should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law. But I blame the administrators of the program for allowing it to happen through incompetence, poor oversight and probably a dose of corruption.
 

GrandAdmiral

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I agree with J-Donk here. The money for PPP came from taxpayers. Tax exempt organizations did not contribute to the pot that those funds came from. At a minimum, for a tax exempt organization to have received tax payer funded assistance should've required said tax exempt organization to lose tax exemption for a time sufficient to repay a portion of the funds they received. That should have applied to businesses that end up with a 0 dollar tax liability as well. There's something fundamentally wrong for people who don't contribute to the common good to reap benefits while others who do contribute, don't receive anything.
Taxpayers, many of which are employees of these organizations. So the plan now, in your eyes, is to force them into the unemployment system because of who they work for (we were planning on a 50% reduction)? The primary facet, the first two Ps, is protecting payroll so that individuals can still be contributors to society in the form of income taxes. Forcing those individuals into unemployment, just because of the status of their employer, makes the system worse.

ETA: Richard best me to it.
 

Dragon

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GRAFTON, Wis. -- A Wisconsin health system official said Wednesday that 500 doses of coronavirus vaccine that had to be discarded after they were left unrefrigerated now appear to have been deliberately spoiled by an employee.

Aurora Medical Center first reported on the spoiled doses on Saturday, and said they had been accidentally left out overnight by an employee at their facility in Grafton.


In a statement late Wednesday, Aurora said the employee involved "today acknowledged that they intentionally removed the vaccine from refrigeration."

Aurora's statement said they had fired the employee and referred the matter to authorities for further investigation. Their statement said nothing about a possible motive for the action, and health system officials didn't immediately respond to messages seeking more information.
https://abc30.com/fired-wisconsin-e...-center-grafton-covid-19-coronavirus/9223348/


This shows how all the misinformation created by Qanon and misc similar groups are so dangerous.

In this case it may even be deadly by delaying the important immunization of vulnerable people
 

Eeyore

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The moose

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While a federal tax exemption does eliminate certain taxes, it does not absolve them of all taxes. But that's not really the point. You and J-Donk seem to equate the tax status of the organization/company with worthiness to participate in the PPP program. The money from the program goes to tax paying individuals in the form of salary/wages. The company or organization does benefit by being able to retain valued employees, but it isn't profit. The only way the loan is forgiven is if they continue to employ (and pay) those employees. It is in no way a windfall for the company or organization.

Why shouldn't tax exempt companies and non-profits participate in the PPP program? Do they not employ people that they have to pay? What do you think the impact to communities would be if the local charity hospital, rural electric company or agricultural cooperative had to lay off people during the pandemic because they couldn't afford to pay people? It really doesn't matter much what type of organization or company it is, if they employ people, they have reasons to want to retain those people. It is the people themselves, the ones who receives their paychecks thanks to the program, who are the true beneficiaries of the program.

Certainly there have been companies that have tried to defraud the program and circumvent its rules. Those should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law. But I blame the administrators of the program for allowing it to happen through incompetence, poor oversight and probably a dose of corruption.

Well I can assume since you know more than two thirds of american private hospitals are not for profit. The laws have to be changed. When CEOs make get staggering compensation under the not for profit scam it needs to go away.

Here is a good read.

The system is broken. The not for profit stuff needs to be regulated or just go away. The corporate world needs to pay instead of just their employees. It needs to be fixed but just not right now and yes we need to keep people working.

We have needed to put the defense production act into effect since the beginning of all of this. Then again it would have cut into companies bottom line and we live in the world where companies are more important than people. All states need to get the national guard training to give vaccines and make this happen

By God let's start working already.

Hell when have only given 2.8 million in more than two weeks. It is a pathetic showing.
 

Richard

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Well I can assume since you know more than two thirds of american private hospitals are not for profit. The laws have to be changed. When CEOs make get staggering compensation under the not for profit scam it needs to go away.

Here is a good read.

The system is broken. The not for profit stuff needs to be regulated or just go away. The corporate world needs to pay instead of just their employees. It needs to be fixed but just not right now and yes we need to keep people working.
I don't disagree that there is CEO compensation abuse, but I don't see it as relevant to the PPP disbursements. While you are focused on CEO pay (which we agree can be absurd), the individual nurses, technicians and other employees still could be impacted. You are looking at large medical conglomerates and suggesting that it is proof that tax exempt entities should not receive PPP monies. Maybe some shouldn't; that's above my paygrade. I am more concerned with the thousands of smaller tax exempt companies, charities and the like that could easily suffer employee losses during a pandemic, such as local domestic abuse shelters, food missions, etc. Some have suggested that no entity that is tax exempt should be able to participate in the PPP program because they are tax exempt and I disagree.
 

efil4

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shocker- Trump never gave a shirt about sick people.

The hallmark of working for Trump is the chaos and competition he breeds. It's a constant state of stress about pleasing him no matter the bodies you must step on to get there.

If you have ever watched season 1 Apprentice, it's all there.

I studied this man in college. I already knew how he operated, creating and breeding this culture, all the while just above it to avoid direct relationship to it.

Amazing that 30 years later he still operates in that manner and finds people to join the team. They are morally bankrupt now.
 

DaveXA

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While a federal tax exemption does eliminate certain taxes, it does not absolve them of all taxes. But that's not really the point. You and J-Donk seem to equate the tax status of the organization/company with worthiness to participate in the PPP program. The money from the program goes to tax paying individuals in the form of salary/wages. The company or organization does benefit by being able to retain valued employees, but it isn't profit. The only way the loan is forgiven is if they continue to employ (and pay) those employees. It is in no way a windfall for the company or organization.

Why shouldn't tax exempt companies and non-profits participate in the PPP program? Do they not employ people that they have to pay? What do you think the impact to communities would be if the local charity hospital, rural electric company or agricultural cooperative had to lay off people during the pandemic because they couldn't afford to pay people? It really doesn't matter much what type of organization or company it is, if they employ people, they have reasons to want to retain those people. It is the people themselves, the ones who receives their paychecks thanks to the program, who are the true beneficiaries of the program.

Certainly there have been companies that have tried to defraud the program and circumvent its rules. Those should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law. But I blame the administrators of the program for allowing it to happen through incompetence, poor oversight and probably a dose of corruption.
Taxpayers, many of which are employees of these organizations. So the plan now, in your eyes, is to force them into the unemployment system because of who they work for (we were planning on a 50% reduction)? The primary facet, the first two Ps, is protecting payroll so that individuals can still be contributors to society in the form of income taxes. Forcing those individuals into unemployment, just because of the status of their employer, makes the system worse.

ETA: Richard best me to it.
Excellent posts. The non-profits are a significant chunk of the economy and to pretend they don't need any more assistance than for profits is short-sighted. The loan program is there to help people keep their jobs. Non-profit status and CEO compensation are 2 separate things from employee protection. The other issues are a separate debate.
 

GrandAdmiral

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I don't disagree that there is CEO compensation abuse, but I don't see it as relevant to the PPP disbursements. While you are focused on CEO pay (which we agree can be absurd), the individual nurses, technicians and other employees still could be impacted. You are looking at large medical conglomerates and suggesting that it is proof that tax exempt entities should not receive PPP monies. Maybe some shouldn't; that's above my paygrade. I am more concerned with the thousands of smaller tax exempt companies, charities and the like that could easily suffer employee losses during a pandemic, such as local domestic abuse shelters, food missions, etc. Some have suggested that no entity that is tax exempt should be able to participate in the PPP program because they are tax exempt and I disagree.
Such as mine, which operate in rural areas treating underinsured and uninsured populations regardless of the ability to pay.
 

J-DONK

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While a federal tax exemption does eliminate certain taxes, it does not absolve them of all taxes. But that's not really the point. You and J-Donk seem to equate the tax status of the organization/company with worthiness to participate in the PPP program. The money from the program goes to tax paying individuals in the form of salary/wages. The company or organization does benefit by being able to retain valued employees, but it isn't profit. The only way the loan is forgiven is if they continue to employ (and pay) those employees. It is in no way a windfall for the company or organization.

Why shouldn't tax exempt companies and non-profits participate in the PPP program? Do they not employ people that they have to pay? What do you think the impact to communities would be if the local charity hospital, rural electric company or agricultural cooperative had to lay off people during the pandemic because they couldn't afford to pay people? It really doesn't matter much what type of organization or company it is, if they employ people, they have reasons to want to retain those people. It is the people themselves, the ones who receives their paychecks thanks to the program, who are the true beneficiaries of the program.

Certainly there have been companies that have tried to defraud the program and circumvent its rules. Those should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law. But I blame the administrators of the program for allowing it to happen through incompetence, poor oversight and probably a dose of corruption.
The problem with this argument is the money in the pool isn't infinite. If I'm given a choice between a tax exempt organization, and a small business that is paying taxes. Those funds should be going to the entity that is paying a higher portion of their revenue in taxes. The small business in this case is paying in more, and should receive more support. I'm fine with a tax exempt companies getting funds if they are at the back of the line. That did not happen.

This is very simple in a anecdote. Over 100k businesses have failed since lockdowns started. Tax exempt entities like the catholic church, and foreign companies for example like cruise lines should have never received a nickel.

If you work, or own a organization that is tax exempt. I don't see how you can honestly say you deserve those funds over others who actually pay taxes.
 
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Richard

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The problem with this argument is the money in the pool isn't infinite. If I'm given a choice between a tax exempt organization, and a small business that is paying taxes. Those funds should be going to the entity that is paying a higher portion of their revenue in taxes. The small business in this case is paying in more, and should receive more support. I'm fine with a tax exempt companies getting funds if they are at the back of the line. That did not happen.

This is very simple in a anecdote. Over 100k businesses have failed since lockdowns started. Tax exempt entities like the catholic church, and foreign companies for example like cruise lines should have never received a nickel.

If you work, or own a organization that is tax exempt. I don't see how you can honestly say you deserve those funds over others who actually pay taxes.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the people who are employed by a tax exempt entity have less value based on who they are employed by. I disagree. Those employees pay taxes, including income taxes, and they shouldn't have to wait at the back of the line simply because someone doesn't like who they work for.

EDIT: The more I think about your position, the less I like it. The idea that PPP funds should go to entities paying a higher portion of their revenue in taxes is absurd on the face of it. The funds support payroll for employees who might otherwise end up on unemployment. Maybe you also feel that unemployment funds should also only go to people who have paid a higher portion of their income in taxes until that limited amount of funds is depleted. Rubbish.

EDIT #2: J-Donk, please forgive me if I have seemed overly harsh or aggressive in my response. In my advancing years, I have grown less tolerant of some arguments.
 
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J-DONK

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If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the people who are employed by a tax exempt entity have less value based on who they are employed by. I disagree. Those employees pay taxes, including income taxes, and they shouldn't have to wait at the back of the line simply because someone doesn't like who they work for.
I mean you can disagree, but the logic is sound, and fair. It's not about liking, it's about what you contribute. The 1.4 billion that went to the catholic church could have saved how many of the over 100, 000 tax paying businesses that failed in the last year?
 

SFIDC3

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This is very simple in a anecdote. Over 100k businesses have failed since lockdowns started. Tax exempt entities like the catholic church, and foreign companies for example like cruise lines should have never received a nickel.
I agree with this on it's face. I don't think the Catholic church or other religious organizations that are tax exempt should receive anything. Tax exempt business in general shouldn't either with some exceptions. To me it is the definition of double-dipping....It is hard for me to reconcile these entities receiving tax payer money when they pay zero taxes and to ignore the thousands of tax paying (mostly small) businesses that have failed.....

Just another reason for me to dislike the notion of what organized religion has turned into .....

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the people who are employed by a tax exempt entity have less value based on who they are employed by. I disagree. Those employees pay taxes, including income taxes, and they shouldn't have to wait at the back of the line simply because someone doesn't like who they work for.
I don't think that's what he is saying at all. Who they are employed by are double dipping, the thousands of small businesses don't get that level of relief, I think that is unfair and wrong....
 

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