All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (16 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Richard]

TB isn't politically sexy right now, so nobody cares.

And it isn't likely to be much of a threat in the United States, so it won't get much press or attention here. TB is a threat in parts of the world, as UTJ says, mostly due to lack of immunizations and access to health care. Americans are immunized at a very early age.

 

[wardorican]

Accually I have experience with the unemployed construction workers of the great cold north.

Had a girl friend years ago and her brother worked for a company that did street paving north of Chicago. So unemployed once it dropped below 40 because it is no longer cost effective for the company to work.

That dude would show up at my house in New Orleans every year after Christmas drawing unemployment and sleeping on my couch unless he hooked up.

Would pack up and go home after Mardi gras.

He was the reason I kicked her out accually and the reasons for our biggest fights.

We talked he could not come back and stay with us all agreed. Get home from work and he on my couch with a joint in his mouth drinking my beer. They both got walking papers that day.

I hear what you are saying to an extent but the lack of empathy for others is the true problem here.

Yes voice you opinion but when the manner you do it is a danger to others I don't care about your opinion anymore because you don't care about the life of others.

Speaking of a lack of empathy, you just threw an entire group/class of people under the bus because you had a bad experience with one person from Michigan? Seriously?

 

[The moose]

Speaking of a lack of empathy, you just threw an entire group/class of people under the bus because you had a bad experience with one person from Michigan? Seriously?

Nope Chicago.

I guess the southern people really don't understand that almost all the people in the construction world are drawing unemployment most of the winter long way the heck up north.

People don't want him to work. He can yell and scream all he wants it won't fix the problem.

With the uncertainty nobody is spending money or inviting a gaggle of strangers into their house to work because that would be stupid. Get a plan because that is not changing soon I am sorry not until we have a vaccine.

I am just tired of the people complaining what is being taken from them with other Americans lives really at stake here.

 

[Beach Friends]

Rather than protect the elderly, New York state issued an order that puts them at risk:

No resident shall be denied re-admission or admission to the NH solely based on a confirmed or suspected diagnosis of COVID-19. NHs are prohibited from requiring a hospitalized resident who is determined medically stable to be tested for COVID-19 prior to admission or readmission.

The linked opinion piece is well worth reading in its entirety, but to highlight some points:

Two weeks ago, Gov. Andrew Cuomo was first asked about his policy that forced nursing homes to admit patients infected with the coronavirus.

“That’s a good question, I don’t know,” the governor answered, turning to an aide.

On Tuesday, Cuomo was asked about a report from the Associated Press that his team had added more than 1,700 deaths to the count of those who died in nursing homes, bringing the total to at least 4,813.

“I don’t know the details, frankly,” the governor answered, turning to an aide.

This policy is in force:

Owners and managers said Tuesday they are not aware of any loosening of the policy. They also say that hospitals still are referring infected patients to them on a near-daily basis and they are expected to take them if they have an empty bed.

To them, the March 25 order was a death sentence. Some facilities say they had no deaths or even positive patients before that date, but many of both since, including among staff members.

This nursing home disaster is on you, Gov. Cuomo: Goodwin

On Tuesday, Cuomo was asked about a report from the Associated Press that his team had added more than 1,700 deaths to the count of those who died in nursing homes, bringing the total to at least 4…

nypost.com

 

[V Chip]

You aren’t at risk from what other people do if you isolate yourself.

Tell that to the families of the dead residents of nursing homes across the nation who stayed in isolation pretty darned well.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Definitely want to hear more about this
===============

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — A set of detailed documents created by the nation’s top disease investigators meant to give step-by-step advice to local leaders deciding when and how to reopen public places such as mass transit, day care centers and restaurants during the still-raging pandemic has been shelved by the Trump administration.

The 17-page report by a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention team, titled “Guidance for Implementing the Opening Up America Again Framework,” was researched and written to help faith leaders, business owners, educators and state and local officials as they begin to reopen.

It was supposed to be published last Friday, but agency scientists were told the guidance “would never see the light of day,” according to a CDC official. The official was not authorized to talk to reporters and spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity.........

Trump administration buries detailed CDC advice on reopening

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — The Trump administration shelved a document created by the nation's top disease investigators with step-by-step advice to local authorities on how and when to reopen restaurants and other public places during the still-raging coronavirus outbreak.

apnews.com

 

[Archies Ghost]

Tell that to the families of the dead residents of nursing homes across the nation who stayed in isolation pretty darned well.

Its quite obvious that a nursing home is quite the opposite of isolation. You demonstrate the stupidity of governments confining large groups in buildings with shared ventilation while closing outdoor areas.

My, also obvious point, remains. If you isolate yourself, the actions of others put you at no risk.

 

[wardorican]

Tell that to the families of the dead residents of nursing homes across the nation who stayed in isolation pretty darned well.

I don't think that applies. Those folks can't be isolated. They have staff there. Nurses, cooks, cleaning, other support.. The problem is the staff brought it to the facility (at least, that's the most likely case). Most nursing homes are lax or ignorant when it comes to these kinds of situations. We had many die during the last hurricane when the power went out. Days without A/C. Didn't do anything. They were all told to get generators. Many didn't.

 

[wardorican]

Its quite obvious that a nursing home is quite the opposite of isolation. You demonstrate the stupidity of governments confining large groups in buildings with shared ventilation while closing outdoor areas.

My, also obvious point, remains. If you isolate yourself, the actions of others put you at no risk.

Miami had to close a park they just re-opened, because people weren't following the directions. Even though, I'll say this, masks out in public aren't as important as they are in buildings. I do agree with you there. I'd just say, instead of "no risk", I'd say "very low risk".

Miami Beach park closed after nearly 7,500 warned about not wearing face masks

Between Friday and Sunday, park rangers issued 7,329 verbal warnings, mostly at South Pointe Park.

www.nbcnews.com

I think some of the complication of opening parks is enforcing distancing rules and limiting large groups. It's a lot of space to try to cover. Secondly, playground equipment, or shaded space isn't going to be 'disinfected'. That's your contact point for transmission, along with restrooms. For the larger parks equipped with such things.

We have a small park behind us (I consider it our back yard..haha), but it has been closed, because it has a playground, two small shelters, and a basketball hoop. People still 'break in' and use it, but usually only 1-4 people at a time. If the county park's folks are around, or a cop, they shoo them away.

 

[wardorican]

You aren’t at risk from what other people do if you isolate yourself.

I'll also say this, after I agreed, in part, with your other post.

It may limit the person in isolation from the risk of catching the virus, but how long can someone truly stay isolated from any interactions with the public?

How long until someone needs more groceries? Cleaning supplies? the mail? pay bills? (remember, most older folks still like to use their check books, not online, or even go to the bank).

Even in a fairly well isolated family, there are some interactions with the outside world. If the outside world is getting riskier, then the odds of bringing it in, do go up. Enough to worry? Well, that depends.

 

[wardorican]

I know, right? The mitigation efforts didn't buy us time to put an effective plan in place. Instead, it gave us another divisive culture war.

I am not sure that's totally true. If you dig into the details, you'll see local plans for reopening. I'm not sure what all the states are doing, just mine, in part.

we have a federal plan, that I guess are just guidelines and the States can tell the Fed to pound sand. That's our system of government....

 

[wardorican]

Nope Chicago.

I guess the southern people really don't understand that almost all the people in the construction world are drawing unemployment most of the winter long way the heck up north.

People don't want him to work. He can yell and scream all he wants it won't fix the problem.

With the uncertainty nobody is spending money or inviting a gaggle of strangers into their house to work because that would be stupid. Get a plan because that is not changing soon I am sorry not until we have a vaccine.

I am just tired of the people complaining what is being taken from them with other Americans lives really at stake here.

Ok, well fork chicago. j.k. but I'm going to move on from that. However, not all states allow for seasonal workers to get unemployment. https://money.cnn.com/2012/05/31/news/economy/seasonal-unemployment-benefits/index.htm

Losing income, losing a job, for some, is as much a crisis as this virus is. We have to remain cognizant of that. The people still working, drawing full income, no layoffs eminent, ok, suck it up for the greater good. To a point, we all need to suck it up for the greater good. However, there are real people being faced with evictions, unable to cover other bills (a lot of places are allowing extensions), mental health issues are likely on the rise, I'd watch for suicides, some folks are more sedentary, so heart issues may pop up. We may see an explosion of homelessness.

Not everyone is in my position, despite being reduced to 60% of my hours (and thus pay), my wife is still working, I have enough in savings to weather this for at least a few months, even if I don't get Unemployment (Short Term Compensation program) benefits. I'm not sure I'll qualify, and for the last 3 weeks I've been in limbo waiting for a stupid PIN number...

 

[SystemShock]

We really are just screwed. I'm just at a loss here -- instead of being mad at not having a plan and infrastructure in place to safely reopen 3 months after we knew that this was going to be bad -- yes, let's be mad at the numbers that don't tell us what we want to hear, let's be mad at trying to delay the spread of the disease while we get that plan and infrastructure at place. It's pure selfishness. "I don't think I'm going to die, so let the weak and vulnerable fend for themselves, as long as I get mine."

There is another side to it: the people who are getting further into dire financial situations/going bankrupt, people who have health issues other than covid-19, the erosion of other types if infrastructure...

Are you suffering financially? Do you live paycheck to paycheck? Is your family living in poor conditions because you have no income at the moment? Are you collecting unemployment? Do you have a health condition other than covid-19? Is your treatment being affected? Did you just graduate with a large student debt hanging on your head an no job in sight for god knows how long? I can continue with the line of questioning, but I think that makes the point. Having no money in our society is a crisis.

I guess it is commendable that you think of the weak and the vulnerable, but at what point does the well being of the few outweigh the well being of the many? How few? And of what type? And what's the better solution? That we all go into hiding for the few? Or that the few go into hiding for the many? And I am not saying we should just abandon them so we can get ours.

I hate to bring up the flu again, but we know 1000's will die every year because of it. And the 1000's include grandmas and kids, brothers and sisters, moms and dads, but we don't do anything about that. We don't care, specially if they don't get vaccinated; "Darwin award!" we shout. And forget about people outside the U.S.

So we all have a threshold, a tolerance to death rates. What's your number?

Of course, there's something to say about the state of "the best healthcare system in the world", how unprepared we are, and how unwilling we are to prepare. Maybe this experience will change the attitude, but I doubt it.

 

[Humperdoo]

Texas Supreme Court orders Dallas salon owner released as Abbott bans jailing citizens for lockdown violations

The Texas Supreme Court on Thursday ordered the release of salon owner Shelley Luther, who was jailed for opening in violation of the state's rules, as Gov. Greg Abbott issued an executive order retroactively eliminating jail time as a consequence for violating the state's coronavirus restrictions.

www.foxnews.com

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

There is another side to it: the people who are getting further into dire financial situations/going bankrupt, people who have health issues other than covid-19, the erosion of other types if infrastructure...

Are you suffering financially? Do you live paycheck to paycheck? Is your family living in poor conditions because you have no income at the moment? Are you collecting unemployment? Do you have a health condition other than covid-19? Is your treatment being affected? Did you just graduate with a large student debt hanging on your head an no job in sight for god knows how long? I can continue with the line of questioning, but I think that makes the point. Having no money in our society is a crisis.

There are a couple of parts to this. First, I continue to advocate for government assistance for people put out of work due to this crisis.

Second, I still don't think you have commented on what a pandemic does to the economy even if we don't shut down. Most of what I've read states that a pandemic where hundreds of thousands of people will die would cause longer economic damage than a couple of month lockdown. A pandemic that is not controlled significantly alters people's economic behavior, hospitalization rates are also high, and a significant portion of our population can't afford those bills, raising medical bankruptcy, plus each person who dies creates a permanent loss of economic activity and contribution to GDP. So, a few months of lock down, followed by a controlled re-opening with testing and contact tracing and a data driven model that gives policy makers a tradeoff on what to shut down for greatest impact with least damage, would be present a very significant economic damage in the short term. However, not controlling the pandemic represents greater economic damage in the long term. I prefer to take my medicine up front.

Finally, this is probably for another thread, but what does it say about our economy if we supposedly went from the best economy ever to disaster if 50% of people and businesses can't stay home from work for 6-8 weeks?

I guess it is commendable that you think of the weak and the vulnerable, but at what point does the well being of the few outweigh the well being of the many? How few? And of what type? And what's the better solution? That we all go into hiding for the few? Or that the few go into hiding for the many? And I am not saying we should just abandon them so we can get ours.

I hate to bring up the flu again, but we know 1000's will die every year because of it. And the 1000's include grandmas and kids, brothers and sisters, moms and dads, but we don't do anything about that. We don't care, specially if they don't get vaccinated; "Darwin award!" we shout. And forget about people outside the U.S.

So we all have a threshold, a tolerance to death rates. What's your number?

I clearly am not being clear b/c I've addressed all this before. I'll see if I can reiterate. The models suggests, left uncontrolled the pandemic will kill between 500,000 and 2 million people. That's a pretty significant number, even if it's only 0.15% to .8% of the population, right? Seems like a reasonable investment can be made to protect those lives right? We lost 3000 people on 9/11 and completely re-ordered our society and spent trillions in an attempt to make sure we aren't vulnerable again - so this is not an unprecedented course of action, and it's a lot more known how many people will die from this pandemic than it is from terrorism.

Since I've typed a lot in other posts, you probably missed the part where I've already talked about the trade-offs for lives saved. I'm not going to type it all out again, but I'm not a "if it saves one life it will be worth it person". I am a "human lives have both intrinsic worth and economic worth, and it's worth a significant investment to save hundreds of thousands of lives" person.

I'm still not sure why you keep citing the flu. Are you under the impression that I'm trying to get to 0 deaths from Covid-19? B/c that isn't the goal. If you are going to use the same methodology for flu deaths and Covid-19 deaths, meaning counting only the deaths listed as the primary cause on the death certificate, using the same guidelines on how those deaths are listed (ie, if some comes into the hospital with the flu and dies, it is listed as a flu death even if they have bad kidneys or lungs or diabetes or whatever)... there have been about 15,000 flu deaths this year and 75,000 Covid deaths. And we know the flu is more prevalent than Covid-19, and that Covid-19 is just getting started.

Are you saying it isn't reasonable to treat Covid-19 more seriously than the flu? Why not?

Of course, there's something to say about the state of "the best healthcare system in the world", how unprepared we are, and how unwilling we are to prepare. Maybe this experience will change the attitude, but I doubt it.

Probably not. For profit healthcare cannot prepare for pandemics -- it's wasted capital most of the time.

 

[TheRealTruth]

Probably not. For profit healthcare cannot prepare for pandemics -- it's wasted capital most of the time.

For fairness, Italy's national health care system nearly collapsed because of it.

 

[wardorican]

I agree with what @UncleTrvlingJim is saying. We often miss the in-between discussion, of how do we do it? How do we balance the two major ideas.

What is constantly ignored is the fact that the virus, left unchecked, will force closures far worse than what we forced on ourselves. But, extending closures means we need to extend aid. Unemployment has been far too slow. The Fed Stimulus was far quicker, at least for me. I hear stories of landlords issuing pay or quit notices, expecting that these people have already received stimulus and unemployment.

so, does this mean, to remain closed, we need another round of direct Fed stimulus?

When we slowly re-open, how many people are going to jump to go back to Restaurants? (maybe more than we think). What about the Bus? Street Cars? Planes? Bars? Night Clubs? Tour busses? Tour boat rides?

What are the plans in place for each of those types of jobs, to have reasonable sanitizing, do you push masks? How do you wear a mask and drink?

There is a whole lot of "how do we do this and ensure a reasonable amount of public safety", otherwise we're in for a serious round two, with a 900k case head start (subtracting the dead and recovered).

How does each business prepare? What is their responsibility vs the local gov't vs state?

I'm sure a bit of this has been figured out, but again, what's the plan?

We could be spending this time sharing what we know about each local and state plan, and discuss the differences or issues. If we need to be sheltered in place longer, how do we meet people's basic needs, financial needs?

It's another reason why testing, tracing, and isolation is critical to get around this. We blew that so badly. This where the Chinese setting up 'fever clinics' and keeping folks there was pretty smart.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

For fairness, Italy's national health care system nearly collapsed because of it.

Yes, it actually would be more accurate for me to say where cost control is a very significant part of planning, pandemics will cause problems on the health care system.