All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[surada]

I was reading some quotes from one of the heads of WHO about influenza, and how beyond vaccination, which we know is not 100%, and its effectiveness varies from season to season, )there is no effort to contain it. We just accept people will die from it, and that's that.

So let it go?


CDC Says This Year’s Flu Vaccine Much More Effective Than ...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/02/21/...
Feb 21, 2020 · In general, when the influenza virus strains in the vaccine match the strains that are circulating the population, such effectiveness tends to be between 40% and 60%.

 

[surada]

Be for real.

Bush in a RINO and not a true conservative.

I am not a fan of Bush .. I was furious and resigned the Republican party right before he invaded Iraq.. But, in the matter of preparing for a pandemic he is a genius compared to Trump and Kushner. Trump has NOTHING in common with conservatives or liberals.. Americans make a mistake when they try to "relate" to Trump.. There are NO shared values... unless you're a sociopath.

 

[Saintamaniac]

At some point we are going to have to make the decision to return to normal life. And yes, whenever that time is there will be people who succumb to the COVID 19 virus. We also know that there will be people who are waiting for that inevitability so that they can lay the blame on others.

There will be no return to "normal" life. There will be a new normal just as there was a new normal after 911. This difference then is that there were competent people putting the plan in place. This administration has yet to display any level of competence especially relating to the handling of the COVID 19 virus, and it's being led by the king of incompetence. Indeed, there will be people who will die from the virus however, it won't be due to a lack of taking steps to avoid getting the virus. As to people waiting for that inevitability to lay blame, there's no need to look any further than the king of incompetence one Donald J. Trump.

 

[Beach Friends]

So let it go?


CDC Says This Year’s Flu Vaccine Much More Effective Than ...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/02/21/...
Feb 21, 2020 · In general, when the influenza virus strains in the vaccine match the strains that are circulating the population, such effectiveness tends to be between 40% and 60%.

I think you missed the point.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I was reading some quotes from one of the heads of WHO about influenza, and how beyond vaccination, which we know is not 100%, and its effectiveness varies from season to season, )there is no effort to contain it. We just accept people will die from it, and that's that.

Remember when I mentioned my significant other is having to reuse her PPE and their nurse techs are going without?

Yeah, that is because the healthcare system is not designed to maintain enormous excess capacity to deal with once in a century pandemics that spike specific and impossible to determine demand.

And absent a vaccine, even an imperfect one, the system will collapse if left unchecked.

So using a relatively predictable and controlled disease with a known vaccine to make decisions about one without simply doesn’t work.

 

[samiam5211]

Are you buying groceries? If so, you should know you are putting people at risk by doing that. Do you like to kill people?

I haven’t bought groceries for four weeks, and I can go at least three more months before I may need to again.

 

[samiam5211]

At some point we are going to have to make the decision to return to normal life. And yes, whenever that time is there will be people who succumb to the Chinese virus. We also know that there will be people who are waiting for that inevitability so that they can lay the blame on others.

I will blame everyone pushing us to go back anytime soon.
I’m sorry, but life as you know it has changed and will never be the same.

 

[JimEverett]

I haven’t bought groceries for four weeks, and I can go at least three more months before I may need to again.

So you advocate hoarding in a time of crisis? That, no doubt, results in at least a great deal of problems for many people, particularly people who do not have the means to hoard.

But more to the point - are you advocating for closing grocery stores? If not, then you are for policies that promote people getting sick and die, according to your logic.

 

[surada]

I haven’t bought groceries for four weeks, and I can go at least three more months before I may need to again.

Oh dear. My son had it covered to keep the family safe at home.. and then the storm on Sunday knocked out the power .. Its still out.. Frozen foods were ruined.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I was reading some quotes from one of the heads of WHO about influenza, and how beyond vaccination, which we know is not 100%, and its effectiveness varies from season to season, )there is no effort to contain it. We just accept people will die from it, and that's that.

And sometimes when a couple of crazy people ram airplanes into a building and kill 3,000 Americans, we spend trillions of dollars and go to war. And I say that as someone who supported that.

We deal with each threat individually based on what we know of the severity of the issue (in terms of lives and economics), and what we think we can do about it.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

There was a study done late last week that indicated that the virus is more widespread than assumed and the mortality rate is much lower.

Could you link that study? I haven't read it, and I'm trying to keep up to date. I know some people were touting the testing results in Iceland, but that actually shows the opposite.

The decision as to when and how to reopen does not come down to lives vs the economy. Devastation of the economy has health implications as well.

The shutdown was never presented as a strategy of waiting until the virus has been eradicated. If we take that approach, we will not have anything to leave our homes for when we finally decide all is clear.

I think all politicians realize that they will be blamed by some for any deaths that occur after any decision to loosen restrictions. They are going to have to show some courage in making the best decisions they can, weighing all the factors.

What we don't need are politicians like the Michigan governor, signing orders that restrict the rights of citizens without any basis in reason. There is no justification for telling citizens that they cannot leave their homes in the city to to go to property they own in more rural areas of the state. Those kinds of authoritarian orders are counterproductive. People will be less likely to comply with legitimate orders when they see their government is overreaching.

You're kind of all over here. I'm asking if you are basing your recommendation on some sort of data analysis or if you are going by your gut feeling?

What is the economic value of a human life? And what are the broader macroeconomic impacts of hundreds of thousands of people dying in a year and clogging up the health care system.

I don't think anyone here is advocating a complete shut down for years on end. I think the idea of a shut down is to buy time to ramp up testing capacity, increase medical capacity, hopefully develop treatments, and so on. Has that been done? Do you have confidence that if we lift restrictions in May our health care facilities can deal with the outbreaks? Etc?

 

[JimEverett]

Heroin for all then?

Yes, my mistake. Meant to write "everything that causes death . . " rather than "anything".

 

[Beach Friends]

I will blame everyone pushing us to go back anytime soon.
I’m sorry, but life as you know it has changed and will never be the same.

Like I said, it's to be expected.
Blame away.

 

[brandon]

(this challenge certainly backfired)

"I challenge you: Show me the 60 Minutes episode a year ago, two years ago, or during the Obama administration, during the Bush administration, that said, 'Hey, global pandemic's coming, you gotta do X, Y, and Z, and by the way, we would shut down the entire global economy to fight it.' Show me that episode, then you'll have some credence in terms of attacking the Trump administration for not being prepared."

Guess that means they have some credence.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Could you link that study? I haven't read it, and I'm trying to keep up to date. I know some people were touting the testing results in Iceland, but that actually shows the opposite.




You're kind of all over here. I'm asking if you are basing your recommendation on some sort of data analysis or if you are going by your gut feeling?

What is the economic value of a human life? And what are the broader macroeconomic impacts of hundreds of thousands of people dying in a year and clogging up the health care system.

I don't think anyone here is advocating a complete shut down for years on end. I think the idea of a shut down is to buy time to ramp up testing capacity, increase medical capacity, hopefully develop treatments, and so on. Has that been done? Do you have confidence that if we lift restrictions in May our health care facilities can deal with the outbreaks? Etc?

It’s fleeting, and devoid of context, but Flip isn’t wrong here. It has been reported the virus is likely more widespread than testing indicates because while no major country is as bad as America in terms of lack of testing with a major outbreak, but not everyone is at South Korea levels and able to capture the asymptomatic and low symptomatic. HOWEVER, postmortum testing is also very low, lots of cases of pneumonia and other late stage issues Covid related that are almost certainly Covid deaths but aren’t captured due to lack of testing and therefore not reported as Covid deaths.

Now if Flip has some study that actually provides results on both sides, the study might have some worthwhile value, but from looks of it it is only focusing on what is already known in terms of the virus being more widespread than tests indicate.

Beyond that it’s hard to have conversations with people evoking straw men(as you say no one is advocating a shelter in place for years) and not demonstrating even basic understanding or context of the virus, like continually comparing it to the flu or making blanket statements about the economy that literally almost no economists agree with and in defense of that stance provides nothing to support it. And who’s two arguments are directly in conflict with one another and doesnt even realize it.

Because if to make your argument that the disease isn’t as bad because of what amounts to a failure to test enough, it likewise means that simply opening the country back up all but guarantees a resurgence. As you just conceded that we don’t have the capacity to truly test and track. Something I also don’t see a reconciliation from.

 

[Heathen]

I'm sure this has been posted before, but a little bit of good news amidst the chaos that was the Wisconsin primary....

Election debacle backfires on Wisconsin Republicans

Republicans effectively dared voters to put themselves at risk. The party apparently didn't realize that quite a few voters were willing to do exactly that

www.msnbc.com

 

[FullMonte]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the President of the United States:

9AM: "Cuomo's been calling daily, even hourly, begging for everything, most of which should have been the state's responsibility, such as new hospitals, beds, ventilators, etc. I got it all done for him, and everyone else, and now he seems to want independence! that won't happen!"

10AM: "Tell the Democrat Governors that "Mutiny On The Bounty" was one of my all time favorite movies. A good old fashioned mutiny every now and then is an exciting and invigorating thing to watch, especially when the mutineers need so much from the Captain. Too easy!"

6PM: "We have beautiful pieces beautiful states with capable governors. They know when it's time to open, and we don't want to put pressure on anybody. I'm not gonna put any pressure on any governor to open. I'm not gonna say to Governor Cuomo, 'you've gotta open in 7 days.' I want him to take his time, do it right, and then open New York."

 

[not2rich]

These press briefings keep getting less informative but demonstrate beyond doubt that Trump has a really simple view of Federalism: Any aspect of the virus response that is going badly (*cough* testing! *cough*) is the sole responsibility of the states/governors. He wants all the glory, all the credit.... But making tough decisions, taking risks, facing accountability...that's for others. If and when his "Grand Reopening" goes off the tracks, you can bet your bank account he'll be blaming the states and governors. We are clearly in trouble with this reality TV show clown "leading" us, and if we get out of this without lasting damage it will be in spite of him, not because of him.