All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (7 Viewers)

Saintamaniac said:

Exactly how do you go about building a consensus with people who actually deny reality? I don't mean things that are debatable. I mean things that are empirically shown to be true. We KNOW this virus is easily spread. We KNOW this virus kills people. Yet there are people who continually ignore facts to believe a habitual liar even to the point of risking infection and death. That is stupid and a good many Americans care not to attempt to build a consensus with stupid people.

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You can look at it a couple ways:

1. First, make a choice to be patient and deal with stupid people. Consistent messages, clear guidelines, clear expectations. Give limited choices.

2. Don't focus on virus directly. Focus on the systems failings it has exposed. Unemployment being cumbersome, and no "open the floodgates" type plan when a major recession or event hits. This could be an easy discussion on health care and providing more insurance options (like MFA). There could be a consensus on disaster response, shutting down airports, screening, etc.

There are a lot of specific issues that could be dealt with that will actually improve things and have little to do with the argument about Wuhan Flu vs COVID-19, or any other name. One is a plan or call to action and the other is just a fight.

9/11 was a galvanizing moment where "security" became the beat of the drum. Perhaps too far, but it built a consensus and actions. This is a real opportunity to push some level of universal health care or medicare for those who want it type plans. This is an opportunity to remind the state governments that Unemployment is Insurance for those of us that work when we get laid off or hours cut. This is an opportunity to put aside American Exceptionalism and do better medical screening at airports and do better sanitizing for mass transit.

wardorican said:

Why not both?

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I think you have stumbled on to the real question.

Can we have someone post a criticism of the Trump administration without someone saying "whatabout China?" I think we can, and in fact I think that is generally the case.

Can we have a post criticizing China without the knee jerk response being "whatabout Trump?" I am less optimistic about that.[/QUOTE]

You've obviously put some thought into the question I asked and I appreciate your effort. We are way beyond having patience with people who deny reality. That is a time-wasting activity.

Sledge Hammer said:

You can look at it a couple ways:

1. First, make a choice to be patient and deal with stupid people. Consistent messages, clear guidelines, clear expectations. Give limited choices.

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None of that matters to people who chose to believe what trump is telling them as opposed to what their eyes see. What good are limited choices when those choices are ignored?

Sledge Hammer said:

2. Don't focus on virus directly. Focus on the systems failings it has exposed. Unemployment being cumbersome, and no "open the floodgates" type plan when a major recession or event hits. This could be an easy discussion on health care and providing more insurance options (like MFA). There could be a consensus on disaster response, shutting down airports, screening, etc.

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It doesn't matter where you direct the focus when the goal is to simply deny what they don't want to hear or talk about. Facts are ignored. Your approach is to have a rational conversation with irrational individuals. This doesn't work and it's a waste of time. Rational people don't make decisions that puts their live in danger simply because trump told them to.

Sledge Hammer said:

There are a lot of specific issues that could be dealt with that will actually improve things and have little to do with the argument about Wuhan Flu vs COVID-19, or any other name. One is a plan or call to action and the other is just a fight.

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There is no bigger unifying principle than self preservation and yet we still see trump supporters out spreading the virus with guns in their hands protesting the very steps being taken to try to save their lives.

Sledge Hammer said:

9/11 was a galvanizing moment where "security" became the beat of the drum. Perhaps too far, but it built a consensus and actions. This is a real opportunity to push some level of universal health care or medicare for those who want it type plans. This is an opportunity to remind the state governments that Unemployment is Insurance for those of us that work when we get laid off or hours cut. This is an opportunity to put aside American Exceptionalism and do better medical screening at airports and do better sanitizing for mass transit.

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This is reasoning falling on deaf ears. Imagine if 46% of the country believed that the attacks didn't really happen. Imagine if that same 46% went out an protested the new steps that were taken to prevent another attack. That is what the country is faced with right now. That is what we are seeing on this very board. These are the same type of people who we are supposed to be patient with and try to form a consensus with. Even now, there are still people in that 46% who are saying that this virus is nothing more than the flu.

Saintamaniac said:

You've obviously put some thought into the question I asked and I appreciate your effort. We are way beyond having patience with people who deny reality. That is a time-wasting activity.


None of that matters to people who chose to believe what trump is telling them as opposed to what their eyes see. What good are limited choices when those choices are ignored?


It doesn't matter where you direct the focus when the goal is to simply deny what they don't want to hear or talk about. Facts are ignored. Your approach is to have a rational conversation with irrational individuals. This doesn't work and it's a waste of time. Rational people don't make decisions that puts their live in danger simply because trump told them to.


There is no bigger unifying principle than self preservation and yet we still see trump supporters out spreading the virus with guns in their hands protesting the very steps being taken to try to save their lives.


This is reasoning falling on deaf ears. Imagine if 46% of the country believed that the attacks didn't really happen. Imagine if that same 46% went out an protested the new steps that were taken to prevent another attack. That is what the country is faced with right now. That is what we are seeing on this very board. These are the same type of people who we are supposed to be patient with and try to form a consensus with. Even now, there are still people in that 46% who are saying that this virus is nothing more than the flu.

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So, give up before we try?

Sounds like a lot of Existential Angst and Despair. We get no where as a country or civilization that way. We don't need 100% compliance, just enough. There will always be some folks you can't get through to, but you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

'Stupid' people often deny reality due to a certain consistent messaging influencing their opinions. It's why you see so much logical flip flopping by some. They don't really have a logical stance. They've been told to think that way. Smart people are affected too.

Beach Friends said:

I think you have stumbled on to the real question.

Can we have someone post a criticism of the Trump administration without someone saying "whatabout China?" I think we can, and in fact I think that is generally the case.

Can we have a post criticizing China without the knee jerk response being "whatabout Trump?" I am less optimistic about that.

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[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure I said both are deserving of critique.

However, I did listen to something interesting on NPR today that would change my critique more to Wuhan province than China as a whole. China came down like a hammer on Wuhan after the mayor of Wuhan tried to down play this and Beijing wanted to know what was going on.

The WHO was banging the drum by late January.

From late Nov to January, there probably were areas to improve. After January, that was on Europe and Us for not taking this seriously enough.

It was on today's Fresh Air show, and I'll link it when it becomes available. It was a good listen.

I can certainly understand this. I’d go, but I don’t blame those that wouldn’t one bit.
Meat plant workers to Trump: Employees aren't going to show up
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/29/busi...t-workers-reaction-executive-order/index.html

Hey guys, anybody remember that totally crazy story about a woman who blamed President Trump because her husband ingested prescription hydroxychloroquine fish tank cleaner and later died? Looks like she might have pulled a Jussie on our overeager media:

There would have been a hurricane Katrina no matter who the president was.

No one blames Bush for the hurricane, but how he handled it.

Same goes for Trump. He has done an objectively terrible job here. Please stop defending him by trying to diminish legitimate complaint about the people running our government.

Just stop.

Beach Friends said:

I think you have stumbled on to the real question.

Can we have someone post a criticism of the Trump administration without someone saying "whatabout China?" I think we can, and in fact I think that is generally the case.

Can we have a post criticizing China without the knee jerk response being "whatabout Trump?" I am less optimistic about that.

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[/QUOTE]

China deserves much criticism. They were dishonest about the nature and impact of the virus, they were secretive on several levels and they were irresponsible to the world community at large by not being transparent about the possibility of a pandemic. They continue to be dishonest, secretive and irresponsible because the nature of their ruling class/party is to be self-serving. I don't know why we would expect anything else from them other than China First.

My criticism of the Chinese government goes far beyond their response to the virus, but I want to stay on topic.

Ummmmm....what???????

FullMonte said:

Ummmmm....what???????

#23 COIN IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HISTORIC MOMENTS SERIES, ''COVID-19, WORLD vs THE UNSEEN ENEMY'', #23 COIN IN SERIES, SOLD OUT!

COVID-19 White House Task Force, Commemorative Silver Coin. Title: WE FOUGHT THE UNSEEN ENEMY, celebrates Everyday Heroes, President Donald J, Trump, Vice President Michael R. Pence, Secretary S. Mnuuchin, Dr. Jerome Adams, Dr. Deborah Birx, Dr. Anthony Fauci, WHO, CDC.

www.whitehousegiftshop.com

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Heck the two different coins that call him a genius are pretty shocking also.

But if he was a true genius he would not sell coins like the fight is won.

On positive news we actually have an effective drug.

Beach Friends said:

Unless you have a crystal ball, the answer to whether another administration would have handled it "better" is simply unknowable. They may not have made the same mistakes, but certainly mistakes would have been made.

It's interesting to look at the last Democratic debate, which was held on March 15th. Unless I am mistaken, there was not a single question presented about the CCP virus. Nor did either candidate mention it.

I recall that during the State of the Union Trump discussed the virus. Meanwhile, in the background you can see Pelosi's focus was on how to best tear up her copy of the State of the Union address.

So, the fact that Trump made mistakes provides us with no insight whatsoever as to what mistakes would have been made if HRC or Biden was at the helm. Those folks have their own issues.

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It’s not knowable, but extremely likely that any other administration would have been far better. Even countries in Europe that haven’t handled the crisis well are doing far better than the US. There may not be a country in the world that has handled the pandemic worse.

Furthermore, any other administration wouldn’t have cut our eyes out by allowing funding to runout on Epidemiologists monitoring hot spots. We had the advantage of some isolation from Asia. Europe is less isolated, so it isn’t surprising that they got hit hard.

The moose said:

On positive news we actually have an effective drug.

'A drug can block this virus': Fauci hails Covid-19 treatment breakthrough

Positive data from the NIAID trial would be a landmark in the race to find a coronavirus treatment.

www.politico.com

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This is positive news, but it should be stressed that the only statistically significant point in this data is a moderate reduction in the length of hospital stays. That is significant given that that's more than anything else has shown thus far, but it's far from being what we need to really make a significant difference in this situation.

FullMonte said:

Ummmmm....what???????

#23 COIN IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HISTORIC MOMENTS SERIES, ''COVID-19, WORLD vs THE UNSEEN ENEMY'', #23 COIN IN SERIES, SOLD OUT!

COVID-19 White House Task Force, Commemorative Silver Coin. Title: WE FOUGHT THE UNSEEN ENEMY, celebrates Everyday Heroes, President Donald J, Trump, Vice President Michael R. Pence, Secretary S. Mnuuchin, Dr. Jerome Adams, Dr. Deborah Birx, Dr. Anthony Fauci, WHO, CDC.

www.whitehousegiftshop.com

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The second one is fine enough. The first, is just screaming "mission accomplished".

Here's that Fresh Air Interview with Donald G. McNeil Jr. I think it's worth listening to. There is a bias, but it is a very well informed bias. He really lays it all out there.

lurk said:

This is positive news, but it should be stressed that the only statistically significant point in this data is a moderate reduction in the length of hospital stays. That is significant given that that's more than anything else has shown thus far, but it's far from being what we need to really make a significant difference in this situation.

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Yeah it is good first step.

And it also gives a path of other things that might be effective.

I would much rather read articles about baby steps than our administration that continues to kick us in the nuts than help.

wardorican said:

Here's that Fresh Air Interview with Donald G. McNeil Jr. I think it's worth listening to. There is a bias, but it is a very well informed bias. He really lays it all out there.

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

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I cannot listen to this, but I am curious as to what is the point.

I am not sure how the United States, or really almost any western democracy, could do what China did. China walled off Wuhan. Remember when Trump suggested banning travel into and out of the NYC Metro area? Trump's suggestion was dumb because it was illegal as hell and it elicited a lot of fair criticism.
You look at Europe and the controversy surrounding nations closing off national borders and pausing the Schengen Agreement - that is not even considering walling off areas within countries themselves.

When people advocate China's response - one of the more authoritarian regimes in the world - it at best feeds the worst conspiracy theories about this virus, and at worst promotes authoritarian responses here.