Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

MT15 said:

By that definition anyone who commits a single killing motivated by hate is committing genocide. I’m not sure it’s a great idea to broaden that - it absolutely dilutes the horror of actual genocide.

I’m not saying that isn’t how the UN is defining genocide, I am just saying I don’t think it’s wise to dilute the meaning of the word in that way.

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So, the us holds that the China is committing genocide by concentration camps of the uyghurs. They systematically abuse and "retrain" them. Israel for years have isolated gazans and systematically sent raids into Gaza, killing indiscrimately. Nentanyahu allows aid to hamas as means to divide palestinians preventing any peace process. They have routinely committed domicide. Now Israel has indiscriminately destroyed 40%(? maybe 60...cant remember) of the housing in gaza. They have cut of aid..and only at the behest of the us did they provide some, but not enough. They don't allow Palestinians back to their lands.

So your telling us that retaliating against hamas resulting in some 30k deaths isn't genocide? Israel provided zero logistics to save innocent lives. We may just go ahead and allow the trail of tears... and call it a day. Labemsraum by another name. It's not just focused killing due to hate. It's the intent to wipe Palestinians out....and yes moving the out of their lands wo killing is also genocide.

It's well past time we stop support of these facists, and excuse them for their actions. For forks sake, we hate on Hungary, poland under pis, China, Russia, but when it comes to israel...throw our ideals out the window. What is it about Israel that makes them special??? This is the bed that they made by choosing a single state apartheid.

This is a good article I think behind the origins of how the term 'genocide' came to be and the history behind it:

Article II of the Genocide Convention:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

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Note: When people talk about genocide with regard to what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people of Gaza, I think it is very important to understand that it is not or should not be based on opinion or derived from knowledge of prior events to compare it against. If it meets the criteria, it fits the definition. Period. That was part of the broader effort of the Rome Statute, with the goal of countries of the world coming together - across tradition, culture, regional differences etc. to agree upon definition of these crimes: https://www.government.nl/topics/in...al-order/the-international-criminal-court-icc

The most challenging aspect I would say around proving genocide from a legal standpoint particular to this conflict is the 'intent to destroy' portion of the bolded text above.
Or it may not be challenging at all, depending on how you look at it. A significant number of Israeli military leaders and government officials have made genocidal statements, so there is no lack of intent being communicated.

But to dig deeper, what is 'intent to destroy' from a legal standpoint ? It can be direct evidence of intent through explicit statements that demonstrate a clear desire to destroy a particular group. This is a historical notation from HRW referencing genocidal acts of the past. From the example given of 1999 genocide case against Goran Jelisic in Yugoslavia in which he slaughtered 13 Muslim detainees during the Bosnian War at Luka camp, where he was ultimately acquitted. : https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/ij/ictr/3.htm

Another interesting article from Cambridge on 'intent to destroy': https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...enocide-mean/636C654F125D59B1CCE36994485A20D7

I've read that some of the Columbia faculty protested NYPD presence there

UriUT said:

So, the us holds that the China is committing genocide by concentration camps of the uyghurs. They systematically abuse and "retrain" them. Israel for years have isolated gazans and systematically sent raids into Gaza, killing indiscrimately. Nentanyahu allows aid to hamas as means to divide palestinians preventing any peace process. They have routinely committed domicide. Now Israel has indiscriminately destroyed 40%(? maybe 60...cant remember) of the housing in gaza. They have cut of aid..and only at the behest of the us did they provide some, but not enough. They don't allow Palestinians back to their lands.

So your telling us that retaliating against hamas resulting in some 30k deaths isn't genocide? Israel provided zero logistics to save innocent lives. We may just go ahead and allow the trail of tears... and call it a day. Labemsraum by another name. It's not just focused killing due to hate. It's the intent to wipe Palestinians out....and yes moving the out of their lands wo killing is also genocide.

It's well past time we stop support of these facists, and excuse them for their actions. For forks sake, we hate on Hungary, poland under pis, China, Russia, but when it comes to israel...throw our ideals out the window. What is it about Israel that makes them special??? This is the bed that they made by choosing a single state apartheid.

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Amen.

What sickens me, and I'm not saying it about folks here, but it sickens me to see all these folks crying ANTISEMITISM ANTISEMITISM and then conveniently go and place their heads back in the sand when similar things happen to black people, other POC, and members of the LGBTQIA+ community. Again, just a bunch of hypocrites.

Heathen said:

A significant number of Israeli military leaders and government officials have made genocidal statements, so there is no lack of intent being communicated.

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Is this true? Are you counting the intent to destroy Hamas as genocidal to the Palestinian people?

I know there are right-wing zealots in Israel, similar to those we have here who desire genocide. But is the Israeli government position that of genocide of the Palestinian people?

I realize the policies of Bibi are abhorrent. And the treatment of Palestinians has been criminal, in many cases. But I am unaware that there is a government policy of genocide towards Palestinians.

I know I am going against the current here, and I’m not going to get up on some moral high horse and condemn anyone who doesn’t hold my viewpoints. I cannot shake the feeling that this entire issue is being manipulated.

There is so much wrong both with Hamas and Israel. I condemn them both. I hold them both responsible for the current war. I cannot weigh one against the other. They’re both horrible.

This is the sort of nagging feeling I have about this.

zztop said:

I've read that some of the Columbia faculty protested NYPD presence there

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The columbia protest shows how difficult it is to havr any sensable policy towards israel.


This is what I mean about the political shirtstorm that Biden has to fight if he opposes israel. Overwhelmingly voted in the house, antizionism is equivalent to antisemitism. I don't understand this special relationship with israel.


Here's another perspective on why biden allows weapons transfer.

I’d call the Biden Administration’s approach “passive-aggressive.” They are angry at Netanyahu, and were even before this. He’s presiding over the most extreme government in the history of the state of Israel. That government and the preceding dozen years of Netanyahu’s tenure are undermining the two fundamental drivers of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, which are shared values and common interests. So, it’s passive-aggressive in the sense that, six months into the war, the Administration has still been unwilling—unable—to impose a single cost or consequence that you and I, as normal human beings, would describe as real pressure.Unable or unwilling?Both, but I’ll get to that in a second. There were three levers the Administration could’ve pulled. They’re still available. No. 1 is to end U.S. military assistance. There’s no indication the Administration’s anywhere close to that. It just approved a shipment of two-thousand-pound bombs, and twenty F-35s. No. 2, change the U.S. voting posture at the U.N., either by introducing its own Security Council resolution, or by voting for someone else’s, that is very critical of Israel. It has not done that. No. 3, abandon the whole notion of negotiating the hostage release and simply join the chorus of those in the international community who basically say, “You need to pressure Israel to cease this military campaign.”

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And I think it has not done these things for three reasons. No. 1, Joe Biden, alone among modern American Presidents, has an emotional relationship with the idea of Israel, the people of Israel, the security of Israel. Then, there is the politics. And, yes, the President is hemorrhaging support among progressives and more than a few mainstream Democrats, but pressing Israel, using this leverage, particularly on military systems, is going to stir up a hornet’s nest among Republicans, conservatives, and the presumptive Republican nominee, who fashions himself as the most pro-Israel President in history. The Republican Party has emerged as the Israel-Can-Do-No-Wrong Party.

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And the third I find the most compelling: If Biden is going to change the picture in Gaza before the Democratic National Convention, if he’s going to find a way to de-escalate Israel’s military campaign, surge humanitarian and ultimately reconstruction assistance into Gaza, and free any of the hostages, he cannot do it by renouncing, calling out, or creating any sustained public breach with this Israeli Prime Minister. And everything that he has done and not done has convinced me that that is his objective. The Biden Administration recognizes that this is not Joe Biden against Benjamin Netanyahu. It is not as if Benny Gantz, members of the war cabinet, and most of the political élites are not completely in tune with Netanyahu’s war strategy. If Biden wants to change the picture, he can’t completely renounce the Israeli government. No one in the Administration wants a major breach. Does Biden want to make a point, Isaac, or does he want to make a difference?

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The practical reality is that if you want to get anything done, even if it involves tensions and pressure, you have to find a way to work with, rather than against, the Israeli government.

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So what this former diplomat is suggesting, apart from my earlier argument of the political infeasible fight against pro israeli forces, is that in order to work with israel to make long term differences, Biden has to play with Netanyahu. Such as weapons transfer. So after this conflict, in order to have reconstruction of Gaza or even any sway inisrael's decision making during the conflict, we must have a working relationship with israel. He admits it may not be successful, nor does he have insight into the internal workings of the Biden Administration. I can understand this viewpoint.

As if there is a gun that israel points at us on a constant basis.

The Israeli government warned the Biden administration that if the International Criminal Court issues arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, it will take retaliatory steps against the Palestinian Authority that could lead to its collapse, two Israeli and U.S. officials said.

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So convict Netanyahu, we'll burn down the house.

MT15 said:

Is this true? Are you counting the intent to destroy Hamas as genocidal to the Palestinian people?

I know there are right-wing zealots in Israel, similar to those we have here who desire genocide. But is the Israeli government position that of genocide of the Palestinian people?

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Of course it's not official policy. Israel is not that dumb...

MT15 said:

Is this true? Are you counting the intent to destroy Hamas as genocidal to the Palestinian people?

I know there are right-wing zealots in Israel, similar to those we have here who desire genocide. But is the Israeli government position that of genocide of the Palestinian people?

I realize the policies of Bibi are abhorrent. And the treatment of Palestinians has been criminal, in many cases. But I am unaware that there is a government policy of genocide towards Palestinians.

I know I am going against the current here, and I’m not going to get up on some moral high horse and condemn anyone who doesn’t hold my viewpoints. I cannot shake the feeling that this entire issue is being manipulated.

There is so much wrong both with Hamas and Israel. I condemn them both. I hold them both responsible for the current war. I cannot weigh one against the other. They’re both horrible.

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Very much so.

Smotrich told reporters Monday that the solution to the war was “to encourage the voluntary migration of Gaza’s residents to countries that will agree to take in the refugees,” The Times of Israel reported.

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Ben Gvir echoed similar sentiments, telling reporters Monday that the war offers an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” according to the outlet.

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said.

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Openly genocidal.

MT15 said:

Is this true? Are you counting the intent to destroy Hamas as genocidal to the Palestinian people?

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It is. I thought about this and tried to carefully read between the lines when capturing some of these quotes because some could be interpreted as being specified toward Hamas and not the broader Palestinian population..

Having said that, I have many quotes and videos where members of the IDF or Government specifically call out the Palestinian people in this way.

I’m on my phone now, but I’d be happy to share these later. Each entry has a corroborating link where someone was either quoted by a verified press source or said it on video themselves.

MT15 said:

I know there are right-wing zealots in Israel, similar to those we have here who desire genocide. But is the Israeli government position that of genocide of the Palestinian people?

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I don’t think that the government has to have an official public statement of the promotion of genocide against the Palestinian people for genocide to be actively occurring and for the majority of them to be for it.

MT15 said:

I realize the policies of Bibi are abhorrent. And the treatment of Palestinians has been criminal, in many cases. But I am unaware that there is a government policy of genocide towards Palestinians.

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I agree. However (and I’m not saying you said otherwise) it’s also far, far more widespread than one man - both from a historical perspective and from an empirically observable one now. Israel has treated the Palestinian people as subhuman for decades, and have instituted some of the most racist policies the world has ever seen toward them. There are horrific stances on the humanity of the Palestinian people that are widespread in Israel - that so many in general public opinion, military, news reporters, even schoolchildren hold. It’s shocking, that’s all I can say.

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t know of any official (external facing) policy that specifies a genocidal intent toward Palestinian people. But I do 100% think that the narrative is widespread, and there are enough statements to support the idea that this is what a large number of the government really think.

MT15 said:

I know I am going against the current here, and I’m not going to get up on some moral high horse and condemn anyone who doesn’t hold my viewpoints. I cannot shake the feeling that this entire issue is being manipulated.

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I’m with you on that. 100%.

For me, it’s not an issue of being on any high ground as much as it is an issue of wanting to stand up for people who are being actively denied the right to be human - whether that be an Israeli or a Palestinian. I do truly think that is the attitude of most of the student protesters across the country. They’re angry with the situation and that so many people seem to be fine with it.

Having said that — absolutely, there are forces that play they’re using the situation to divide us and I think they are definitely capitalizing.

MT15 said:

There is so much wrong both with Hamas and Israel. I condemn them both. I hold them both responsible for the current war. I cannot weigh one against the other. They’re both horrible.

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I absolutely agree, at least in one sense - that there is no better entity when both want to slaughter innocent people. If one’s charter is “death to innocents” and/or they hold genocidal views, I’d hope they are relentlessly condemned, pursued, and prosecuted.

I don’t think it’s really about weighing one versus the other in the situation like we’re in now. To me, it’s more recognizing that one side has been committing the volume of the atrocities the last 6 months, so it’s a predictable response of condemnation.

“Speech that is critical of Israel alone does not constitute unlawful discrimination,” Rep. Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., said during a hearing Tuesday. “By encompassing purely political speech about Israel into Title VI’s ambit, the bill sweeps too broadly.

Advocates of the proposal say it would provide a much-needed, consistent framework for the Department of Education to police and investigate the rising cases of discrimination and harassment targeted toward Jewish students.

MT15 said:

By that definition anyone who commits a single killing motivated by hate is committing genocide. I’m not sure it’s a great idea to broaden that - it absolutely dilutes the horror of actual genocide.

I’m not saying that isn’t how the UN is defining genocide, I am just saying I don’t think it’s wise to dilute the meaning of the word in that way.

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What I find troubling in your comment is the idea that calling what the Israeli government and military are doing to Palestinians genocide somehow dilutes the meaning of the word.

What are your personal thresholds that have to be met to label something as genocide without diluting the meaning of genocide?

Israel is legally committing genocide, as is Hamas. They should both be stopped and held accountable. That's all I'm saying.

Some are definitely trying to exploit what is happening, but I don't understand how you see people being manipulated into seeing it as genocide.

I've seen it as the apartheid genocide that it around 20 years ago after listening to Noam Chomsky and others factually illustrate how what Isreal has been doing to Palestinians is far worse than what South Africa did to it's black skinned citizens. That's also how I learned that the massive Israeli propaganda and lobbying efforts are the reason the US and most of the world forced South Africa to stop, while enabling Israel to continue.

The world hasn't just sat by silently while Israel has done for decades what it is still doing to the Palestinians, the world enabled Israel until very recently. Biden is trying to use soft power to minimize the suffering and death inflicted on the in Gaza. I understand why.

It's a big deal that Biden has the US military building a port of entry for aid into Gaza. He knows that the Israeli's won't attack aid going to the Palestianians with US soldiers in the vicinity. I expect that he'll also have US soliders moving through the supply routes to give more protection. I think, maybe hope more than think, that Biden will use the supplying of aid to the people of Gaza by US troops as a way to do a soft peace keeping force.

The hard liners in Israel know that they won't get away with an "oops, my bad" if they injure a single US soldier. They also know they can't get away with any false flags operations either. Where there are US troops with people of Gaza, there are people in Gaza safe from the Israeli military's indiscriminate murder.

UriUT said:

So convict Netanyahu, we'll burn down the house.

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And if the US ends an alliance with Israel, Isreal will enter an alliance with Putin's Russia, who Netanyahu has been politically flirting with since Russia launched it's full invasion of Ukraine. That signaled to me that Isreal's ruling government and military were preparing to go full on into forcing the Palestinians out of all of the areas Israel occupies. The ruling Isreali government has been following the same path that the Nazis did in Germany. They have been dismantling what democracy there was in the Israeli apartheid and ramping up their anti-Palestenian rhetoric.

The situation in Gaza is already a global conflict, it's just some countries haven't opened fire, yet. I think Biden is also trying to keep more countries from shooting at each other. I think Putin is trying to make the opposite happen. Now that US aid is flowing to Ukraine again, Putin needs a full on multinational shooting war in the middle east to give him any chance of achieving his goals with Ukraine and the Baltic states.

A suit has been filed alleging ties to Hamas and campus protests. Can’t speak to the merits or standing.

MT15 said:

I don’t believe these protests are organic in the sense that they are student-driven. I also do believe the outside agitators are causing the issues with Jewish students. I know that will upset people here who want to believe otherwise. We should be careful about confirmation bias in this issue.

I read that a Jewish student (at UCLA? I cannot remember) wanted to join the protest and was turned away because he said he does believe Israel has a right to exist. For that he was labeled a Zionist and made to leave. I also read that protestors at one location were blocking entrance to a library and requiring armbands that they were issuing to students after vetting their views in order to go in the library.

Evidence of non-student involvement:

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“According to a UT source, 46 of the 79 people arrested on Monday were not UT students”

Heathen said:

This is a good article I think behind the origins of how the term 'genocide' came to be and the history behind it:

Raphael Lemkin and the Genocide Convention

Learn about lawyer and activist Raphael Lemkin's efforts to make the world recognize mass murder as an international crime.

www.facinghistory.org

Note: When people talk about genocide with regard to what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people of Gaza, I think it is very important to understand that it is not or should not be based on opinion or derived from knowledge of prior events to compare it against. If it meets the criteria, it fits the definition. Period. That was part of the broader effort of the Rome Statute, with the goal of countries of the world coming together - across tradition, culture, regional differences etc. to agree upon definition of these crimes: https://www.government.nl/topics/in...al-order/the-international-criminal-court-icc

The most challenging aspect I would say around proving genocide from a legal standpoint particular to this conflict is the 'intent to destroy' portion of the bolded text above.
Or it may not be challenging at all, depending on how you look at it. A significant number of Israeli military leaders and government officials have made genocidal statements, so there is no lack of intent being communicated.

But to dig deeper, what is 'intent to destroy' from a legal standpoint ? It can be direct evidence of intent through explicit statements that demonstrate a clear desire to destroy a particular group. This is a historical notation from HRW referencing genocidal acts of the past. From the example given of 1999 genocide case against Goran Jelisic in Yugoslavia in which he slaughtered 13 Muslim detainees during the Bosnian War at Luka camp, where he was ultimately acquitted. : https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/ij/ictr/3.htm

Another interesting article from Cambridge on 'intent to destroy': https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...enocide-mean/636C654F125D59B1CCE36994485A20D7

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UriUT said:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4385605-us-rebukes-irresponsible-comments-from-israeli-ministers/

Very much so.


Openly genocidal.

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You are right here. I confused genocide with ethnic cleansing.

LA - L.A. said:

It's a big deal that Biden has the US military building a port of entry for aid into Gaza. He knows that the Israeli's won't attack aid going to the Palestianians with US soldiers in the vicinity.

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yes, it is.

I have seen many photos and videos indicating support for Hamas from the protests recently. My belief is that these protests started out very peacefully, and with good goals. But from a lot of what I have seen, in some locations, they have attracted pro-Hamas individuals and other anarchist types who are accelerating into violence. The group that attacked the UCLA protest - very suspect. The people that are being arrested in some places have been found to have ties to Hamas and/or terrorism.

The other group who benefits from turning the protests violent is the Trump campaign. I am old enough to remember 1968, the peaceful protests that became increasingly violent and how people on the left vilified Hubert Humphrey for not taking a strong enough stand against the Vietnam war. They called him a war criminal and a pig, and the rest of the nation elected Richard Nixon. I read that protestors in at least one location last night were chanting “fork Joe Biden”. They will elect Trump. Trump will most definitely not handle the situation better than Biden.

The accusation that outside forces (agitators) was also used during the Civil rights movement. Someone on threads posted a nytimes article on the Columbia protest next to an article written during the Civil rights movement echoed the exact same theme. And I wouldn't even know about the Columbia protest had it not for an Israeli visiting professor denouncing Columbia University for locking him out after he confronted the protestors.

Whether it's to denounce the left wing or anti-racist forces, or to even denounce culpability, it's historically been something that has been utilized as a trope to defend white supremacy. It's pleading either white innocence by saying, these black folks who are protesting are not authentic black folks. And that has a very, very long history of white Southerners saying in the South, we treat our colored people good and our Negroes love us and we love them. Trouble only happens when you have Northerners who come in and tell us that there's something wrong with our traditional folk ways.

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