Civil War 2? (2 Viewers)

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    Optimus Prime

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    Very sobering article
    ================
    If you know people still in denial about the crisis of American democracy, kindly remove their heads from the sand long enough to receive this message: A startling new finding by one of the nation’s top authorities on foreign civil wars says we are on the cusp of our own.

    Barbara F. Walter, a political science professorat the University of California at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence.

    By law, the task force can’t assess what’s happening within the United States, but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country.

    Her bottom line: “We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe.” She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, “How Civil Wars Start,” out in January. “No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war,” she writes.

    But, “if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America — the same way you’d look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela — you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely.

    And what you would find is that the United States, a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory.”

    Indeed, the United States has already gone through what the CIA identifies as the first two phases of insurgency — the “pre-insurgency” and “incipient conflict” phases — and only time will tell whether the final phase, “open insurgency,” began with the sacking of the Capitol by Donald Trump supporters on Jan. 6.

    Things deteriorated so dramatically under Trump, in fact, that the United States no longer technically qualifies as a democracy. Citing the Center for Systemic Peace’s “Polity” data set — the one the CIA task force has found to be most helpful in predicting instability and violence — Walter writes that the United States is now an “anocracy,” somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state.

    U.S. democracy had received the Polity index’s top score of 10, or close to it, for much of its history. But in the five years of the Trump era, it tumbled precipitously into the anocracy zone; by the end of his presidency, the U.S. score had fallen to a 5, making the country a partial democracy for the first time since 1800.

    “We are no longer the world’s oldest continuous democracy,” Walter writes. “That honor is now held by Switzerland, followed by New Zealand, and then Canada. We are no longer a peer to nations like Canada, Costa Rica, and Japan, which are all rated a +10 on the Polity index.”…….

    Others have reached similar findings. The Stockholm-based International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance put the United States on a list of “backsliding democracies” in a report last month.

    “The United States, the bastion of global democracy, fell victim to authoritarian tendencies itself," the report said.

    And a new survey by the academic consortium Bright Line Watch found that 17 percent of those who identify strongly as Republicans support the use of violence to restore Trump to power, and 39 percent favor doing everything possible to prevent Democrats from governing effectively……



     
    Assuming the election officials check them as they are received I don't see why it matters -- for security purposes -- if they have to be requested or mailed automatically. Unless the argument is 'I only want people voting who put forth some modicum of effort to request a ballot.' And that's not much of an argument. Everyone who is legally eligible should be able to vote... shouldn't matter if they are lazy.
    I know, effort and self agency is too much for some people. And those people should not have a say in elections.
     
    No problem with absentee ballots, just not a fan of universal mail out ballots. The ability for fraud is there, so why even have a risk at all, if voting is critical, why not make it secure as possible?
    With Drop boxes, you also have ballot harvesting, that yes, does happen.
    Are we that lazy as a society now that putting effort into voting is too much of a inconvenience? Honestly, if you are too lazy to go in person and vote, you should not vote.
    I thought these drop boxes were a temporary 'pandemic' measure. Was that lie as well? It is looking that way.

    So you're against democracy. Thus you believe voter suppression to be a good thing.
    We'll make it a trivial inconvenience for some people to vote and an hours-long endurance test for others.
    How egalitarian.

    NOT
     
    No problem with absentee ballots, just not a fan of universal mail out ballots. The ability for fraud is there, so why even have a risk at all, if voting is critical, why not make it secure as possible?
    With Drop boxes, you also have ballot harvesting, that yes, does happen.
    Are we that lazy as a society now that putting effort into voting is too much of a inconvenience? Honestly, if you are too lazy to go in person and vote, you should not vote.
    I thought these drop boxes were a temporary 'pandemic' measure. Was that lie as well? It is looking that way.

    I'm trying to understand why a mail-in ballot is somehow less secure than an absentee ballot when they are both certified/scrutinized the same way when received. I'm pretty sure drop-boxes have been in used since before COVID. As far as ballot harvesting... I guess that term needs to be defined. If an election official is checking a ballot for signature/ID number/whatever then, again, what is the problem?

    I know, effort and self agency is too much for some people. And those people should not have a say in elections.
    I don't think religious people should have a say in elections because, imo, they believe in kooky stuff that has no bearing in the real world. But, hey, they can vote!

    Anyone who is eligible should be able to vote. And it should be as easy as possible so long as there are reasonable security measurements (which there are). Having no self agency is no more a disqualifying a reason than any number of other things I can think of.
     
    No problem with absentee ballots, just not a fan of universal mail out ballots. The ability for fraud is there, so why even have a risk at all, if voting is critical, why not make it secure as possible?
    With Drop boxes, you also have ballot harvesting, that yes, does happen.
    Are we that lazy as a society now that putting effort into voting is too much of a inconvenience? Honestly, if you are too lazy to go in person and vote, you should not vote.
    I thought these drop boxes were a temporary 'pandemic' measure. Was that lie as well? It is looking that way.
    How is there more potential for fraud in these states that do mail ballots to all registered voters than the states who make the voters request them? They have to be a registered voter to get the ballot mailed to them. When the ballot is returned it has to go through all the same checks that the state has for other ballots. Some states have been doing this for years with no appreciable fraud. Some states just tried it for the pandemic. It’s generally popular with the people and fraud has been extremely rare - no more common with this way than others. So I would expect to see more states doing this in the future. It’s a great way to make it possible for more people to vote.

    That would be the American way. Preventing people who have the right to vote from actually voting is pretty much un-American. If your ideas are worthwhile, have faith that you can sell those ideas to more people. If your ideas generally suck, then yes, I can see where you don’t want more people voting. Everyone in America who is eligible has the right to vote. If you don’t agree then you will need to change the constitution. Or just go live somewhere else where voting isn’t a right.

    Ballot harvesting isn’t the problem you’ve been told it is. When it happens it is usually involving only a small number of votes and meant to swing a local race. It’s never been done in enough volume to swing a larger election.
     
    I'm trying to understand why a mail-in ballot is somehow less secure than an absentee ballot when they are both certified/scrutinized the same way when received. I'm pretty sure drop-boxes have been in used since before COVID. As far as ballot harvesting... I guess that term needs to be defined. If an election official is checking a ballot for signature/ID number/whatever then, again, what is the problem?


    I don't think religious people should have a say in elections because, imo, they believe in kooky stuff that has no bearing in the real world. But, hey, they can vote!

    Anyone who is eligible should be able to vote. And it should be as easy as possible so long as there are reasonable security measurements (which there are). Having no self agency is no more a disqualifying a reason than any number of other things I can think of.
    So, the drop boxes, ballot harvesting and universal ballot mail outs are more for convivence than a battle against voter suppression. Is that not your argument?
     
    How is there more potential for fraud in these states that do mail ballots to all registered voters than the states who make the voters request them? They have to be a registered voter to get the ballot mailed to them. When the ballot is returned it has to go through all the same checks that the state has for other ballots. Some states have been doing this for years with no appreciable fraud. Some states just tried it for the pandemic. It’s generally popular with the people and fraud has been extremely rare - no more common with this way than others. So I would expect to see more states doing this in the future. It’s a great way to make it possible for more people to vote.

    That would be the American way. Preventing people who have the right to vote from actually voting is pretty much un-American. If your ideas are worthwhile, have faith that you can sell those ideas to more people. If your ideas generally suck, then yes, I can see where you don’t want more people voting. Everyone in America who is eligible has the right to vote. If you don’t agree then you will need to change the constitution. Or just go live somewhere else where voting isn’t a right.

    Ballot harvesting isn’t the problem you’ve been told it is. When it happens it is usually involving only a small number of votes and meant to swing a local race. It’s never been done in enough volume to swing a larger election.
    Whether it is a problem or not, I don't think any other person should be between your ballot and the election official. Any other stop, increases the chance for potential fraud.
    Does that at least make some sense?
     
    So, the drop boxes, ballot harvesting and universal ballot mail outs are more for convivence than a battle against voter suppression. Is that not your argument?
    Let's not be obtuse. Making it more inconvenient to vote in areas with higher populations of minorities is de facto suppression wrapped up in a proposed 'solution' to ballot security where there is, in fact, no problem.
     
    Whether it is a problem or not, I don't think any other person should be between your ballot and the election official. Any other stop, increases the chance for potential fraud.
    Does that at least make some sense?
    Wouldn't an election official be the one getting the ballots from the drop-box? As opposed to the extremely safe and Trump approved absentee ballots that go through mailmen?
     
    So, the drop boxes, ballot harvesting and universal ballot mail outs are more for convivence than a battle against voter suppression. Is that not your argument?
    Drop boxes and universal ballot or application mail outs are definitely about convenience.

    Is there a reason voting shouldn't be convenient?
     
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    Let's not be obtuse. Making it more inconvenient to vote in areas with higher populations of minorities is de facto suppression wrapped up in a proposed 'solution' to ballot security where there is, in fact, no problem.
    I have never seen that. Where I vote and have voted, it is everyone waiting in the same line.
    This is labeled as an attempt to correct 'voter suppression' but in reality the only issue is convenience. If you want to make an argument for convenience then that would be fine. That is a discussion to had, but when the first argument is 'voter suppression' that is disingenuous and also makes it a 'us against them' issue.
     
    Wouldn't an election official be the one getting the ballots from the drop-box? As opposed to the extremely safe and Trump approved absentee ballots that go through mailmen?
    Do mail men pick up the ballots from the drop box and the voting location or an election official? I honestly don't know.
    Is Trump the only politician that approves of absentee ballots? Did the debate on voter suppression/fraud begin with Trump?
     
    I have never seen that. Where I vote and have voted, it is everyone waiting in the same line.
    This is labeled as an attempt to correct 'voter suppression' but in reality the only issue is convenience. If you want to make an argument for convenience then that would be fine. That is a discussion to had, but when the first argument is 'voter suppression' that is disingenuous and also makes it a 'us against them' issue.
    If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Why would Republicans want to make it less convenient for Democrats to vote. Let's not struggle too much on this one...

    As far as who picks up ballots from drop-boxes then I assume it would not be mailmen. The boxes are controlled by the local election boards. My point in comparing it to absentee ballots is you expressly said you were fine with them and your major issue was lowering the number of people in the chain. Certainly a sensible concern but I merely pointed out the drop-box presumably has less people in the chain or, at least, no more than the absentee ballots.

    And, yeah, no one really made an issue out the the integrity of elections or mail-in voting until Trump used it as an excuse/sham issue to rabble rouse the low-information voters. There has never been any evidence of significant or even noticeable voter fraud. I've never seen a credible story where more than maybe a ballot or two was forged and it goes across party lines. Trump and pretty much every other lackey that kowtows to him in the GOP would have us believe Democrats are creating ballots out of thin air to the tune of thousands upon thousands. It's a lie. Period.
     
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    If you want to make an argument for convenience then that would be fine.
    I would like to make an argument for convenience.

    Is there a reason why voting should be inconvenient?

    Do you enjoy going to the DMV? Do you wish it were more difficult? I don't understand.
     
    Once again, here in Oregon, ballots are mailed out automatically each election.

    They are mailed to you at the address on your driver’s license.

    When you renew your license, you are asked if you want to change any voter information. Same when registering of vehicles or renewing plates.

    When you vote, you can either put it back in the mail for the mailman, or if you feel unsure about safety of you ballot, you can carry it to any of the many ballot drop off locations throughout the city/state (typically libraries or schools). Each Dropbox is an official, locked box sealed with tamper tape and is in plain sight.

    They put the boxes out two to three days before the Election Day and people can begin to drop off then.

    Never any problems, and zero excuse not to vote.
     
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