How to improve American Education in 2021. (1 Viewer)

[Paul]

The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.

U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries

U.S. students continue to rank near the middle, and behind many other advanced industrial nations, in international math, science and reading assessments.

www.pewresearch.org

My suggestion is rather simple.

1. Study why immigrants from East Asia, India, and Nigeria do well with American education. Apply that insight to other groups (if possible).
2. Manage public schools as if though they were private schools with uniforms and discipline.
3. Create high end special schools for those that are truly disenfranchised.
4. Create a force of social workers to treat family dysfunction with regards to education.
5. Reduce the curriculum to the simple basics and repeat that on a yearly basis.
6. At about 10th grade divide college bound students away from non-college bound.
7. Provide solid basic education and trade training for non-college bound kids. There is no point in offering free college to these kids.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

They are my opinions, but they are based on reality. Feel free to research every point I have made. If I am wrong I would love to know.

Why? It's clear that you haven't.

 

[Paul]

Why? It's clear that you haven't.

CM, go to sleep.
If you have nothing to post ask your wife for advice.

 

[wardorican]

The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.

U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries

U.S. students continue to rank near the middle, and behind many other advanced industrial nations, in international math, science and reading assessments.

www.pewresearch.org

My suggestion is rather simple.

1. Study why immigrants from East Asia, India, and Nigeria do well with American education. Apply that insight to other groups (if possible).
2. Manage public schools as if though they were private schools with uniforms and discipline.
3. Create high end special schools for those that are truly disenfranchised.
4. Create a force of social workers to treat family dysfunction with regards to education.
5. Reduce the curriculum to the simple basics and repeat that on a yearly basis.
6. At about 10th grade divide college bound students away from non-college bound.
7. Provide solid basic education and trade training for non-college bound kids. There is no point in offering free college to these kids.

So, I've been away for a while, minus my short comments earlier. I'm going to spring board off of your original post, because, to be honest Paul, you're all over the place.

I feel like you have a solution in dire need of a problem. You're contradicted yourself multiple times. And, my advice is simple. Instead of trying to prescribe the cure for the American Education System, why not ask educators what is and isn't going on. And, not all US schools are run the same way or cover the same exact social topics that seem to be at the root of your issue.

I'm also going to start out with homeschooling. Sure, homeschooling has doubled this year to about 5 million kids. Likely mostly due to the pandemic. Some political, some just practical. I'd imagine that's mostly younger kids where parents think they can do as good or a better job. I think, as SBTB has shared, based on what I know about more advanced subjects, how many parents are home schooling their high school kids and able to adequately teach Algebra, Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, Calculus, Chemistry, Physics? Even ignoring the 'shop kids', since unless you have a full wood working shop in your home, the kids won't have adequate access to the supplies and tools needed to learn the craft.

How many here can use the quadratic formula and use it in real work, or scientific situations?

How about a basic trig problem?

A few of the mom's I know up north making a political fuss about school and threatening home schoolling can't even solve for the angle of X. Heck, they probably don't recall what the Sin, Cos, or Tan of an angle is. They might be able to teach a 7 year old, but I think they would struggle once Middle School age hits.

And isn't that what we see in our regular lives? At some point, a lot of kids outpace their parents ability to help with their homework. I know I've been the 'math and science helper' since the kids started doing anything past basic multiplication. My wife has a masters degree in Social work, and she can't do algebra without me helping her along. This is the same person who I had to make a cheat sheet for so she could go between an hourly wage and a yearly salary. really?

Ok, based on what I said about religious studies, philosophy, etc, I hate everything about point #5 you posted. That's not how you educate people.

Social workers and helping 'cure' family dysfunction. Yeah, they try. Good luck. Sure, the American Education system would be a lot better if every student was motivated, rich, with both parents, fully fed, well rested, etc. But not everyone is like that. How we raise people from poverty, create better households, better marriages, is such a massive topic, I'm honestly ignoring it. You can't fix it with a magic wand, let alone anything realistic. We have to cook with the ingredients we have. So, we have to teach the kids we have, good and crappy households. I'm not saying ignore all that, but I feel like your politics are at odds with wanting to help families get out of poverty, outside of just wanting them to figure it out on their own. That's just pointless bluster.

There are lots of ways to help that along. You care so much, you stated your kids are grown, so volunteer as a big brother, or another similar organization. Send the elevator down for a less fortunate kid.

I really think your solutions need to be thought through a bit more, perhaps with actual information from educators (pssst, a few are in here), and you may want to clarify a few things. I don't even know what a high end school that caters to disenfranchised means... Charter schools? Magnet programs? Sending our poor out of the home to boarding schools?

p.s. you're also arguing for common core. Which, I believe most political right don't like... Common core, especially math, IS based on what's working in Asia. It's more based on problem solving. And guess what, most American parents struggle with it. Even I had to give it more thought that I'm used to, before I figured most of it out. I think some parts are overly pedantic, but the rest is just conceptually training for algebra and how to break a problem down into pieces. But that's why most parents hate it, they can't help their younger kids with their homework, because they're too crappy at math to help.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

CM, go to sleep.
If you have nothing to post ask your wife for advice.

Wow, way to go after someone's family. Creep.

 

[Paul]

And, my advice is simple. Instead of trying to prescribe the cure for the American Education System, why not ask educators what is and isn't going on. And, not all US schools are run the same way or cover the same exact social topics that seem to be at the root of your issue.

The problem is that educators are not doing the job. They have provided no results despite massive increases in the education budget.

I'm also going to start out with homeschooling. Sure, homeschooling has doubled this year to about 5 million kids. Likely mostly due to the pandemic. Some political, some just practical. I'd imagine that's mostly younger kids where parents think they can do as good or a better job. I think, as SBTB has shared, based on what I know about more advanced subjects, how many parents are home schooling their high school kids and able to adequately teach Algebra, Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, Calculus, Chemistry, Physics? Even ignoring the 'shop kids', since unless you have a full wood working shop in your home, the kids won't have adequate access to the supplies and tools needed to learn the craft.

I agree 100%. My daughters homeschooled last year for grades K, 1,2. No parent should home school their kids for calculus, I agree.

How many here can use the quadratic formula and use it in real work, or scientific situations?

How about a basic trig problem?

If you know indian chief SOHCAHTOA there is no problem bro.

A few of the mom's I know up north making a political fuss about school and threatening home schoolling can't even solve for the angle of X. Heck, they probably don't recall what the Sin, Cos, or Tan of an angle is. They might be able to teach a 7 year old, but I think they would struggle once Middle School age hits.

OK, we know you know high school math. Somew people graduating from inner city schools these days cannot read or pass a basic arithmetic test. What is your point?

And isn't that what we see in our regular lives? At some point, a lot of kids outpace their parents ability to help with their homework. I know I've been the 'math and science helper' since the kids started doing anything past basic multiplication. My wife has a masters degree in Social work, and she can't do algebra without me helping her along. This is the same person who I had to make a cheat sheet for so she could go between an hourly wage and a yearly salary. really?

OK, those that major in liberal arts are not in the same universe as STEM types. Nothing new here.

Ok, based on what I said about religious studies, philosophy, etc, I hate everything about point #5 you posted. That's not how you educate people.

What is the point of teaching philosophy or critical thinking to kids that do not have reading comprehension?

Social workers and helping 'cure' family dysfunction. Yeah, they try. Good luck. Sure, the American Education system would be a lot better if every student was motivated, rich, with both parents, fully fed, well rested, etc. But not everyone is like that. How we raise people from poverty, create better households, better marriages, is such a massive topic, I'm honestly ignoring it. You can't fix it with a magic wand, let alone anything realistic. We have to cook with the ingredients we have. So, we have to teach the kids we have, good and crappy households. I'm not saying ignore all that, but I feel like your politics are at odds with wanting to help families get out of poverty, outside of just wanting them to figure it out on their own. That's just pointless bluster.

I think teachers should try to figure out why some East Asian students do so well academically and try to instill that culture into failing American children. Why not?

There are lots of ways to help that along. You care so much, you stated your kids are grown, so volunteer as a big brother, or another similar organization. Send the elevator down for a less fortunate kid.

I am a grandpa but I still work full time. I will retire in a year but I will dedicate the time to improve my grandchildren.

I really think your solutions need to be thought through a bit more, perhaps with actual information from educators (pssst, a few are in here), and you may want to clarify a few things. I don't even know what a high end school that caters to disenfranchised means... Charter schools? Magnet programs? Sending our poor out of the home to boarding schools?

Educators have failed very badly, so trying new ideas should not be a surprise. A high end school is what people ask for all the time. They always scream for more money. I say give them the high end school, but let's provide room and board to the children from awful homes.

p.s. you're also arguing for common core. Which, I believe most political right don't like... Common core, especially math, IS based on what's working in Asia. It's more based on problem solving. And guess what, most American parents struggle with it. Even I had to give it more thought that I'm used to, before I figured most of it out. I think some parts are overly pedantic, but the rest is just conceptually training for algebra and how to break a problem down into pieces. But that's why most parents hate it, they can't help their younger kids with their homework, because they're too crappy at math to help.

What is the point of teaching reasoning and critical thinking when the kids do not know the basics?

 

[Goatman saint]

The problem is that educators are not doing the job. They have provided no results despite massive increases in the education budget.

I agree 100%. My daughters homeschooled last year for grades K, 1,2. No parent should home school their kids for calculus, I agree.

If you know indian chief SOHCAHTOA there is no problem bro.

OK, we know you know high school math. Somew people graduating from inner city schools these days cannot read or pass a basic arithmetic test. What is your point?


OK, those that major in liberal arts are not in the same universe as STEM types. Nothing new here.

What is the point of teaching philosophy or critical thinking to kids that do not have reading comprehension?

I think teachers should try to figure out why some East Asian students do so well academically and try to instill that culture into failing American children. Why not?

I am a grandpa but I still work full time. I will retire in a year but I will dedicate the time to improve my grandchildren.

Educators have failed very badly, so trying new ideas should not be a surprise. A high end school is what people ask for all the time. They always scream for more money. I say give them the high end school, but let's provide room and board to the children from awful homes.

What is the point of teaching reasoning and critical thinking when the kids do not know the basics?

Just by reading this it shows you have absolutely no clue about many things. As I explained earlier your math reasoning and critical thinking abilities are far more important than straight up computation. I’d rather have ten kids who can think through a problem and use a calculator than a bunch of kids who can do awesome computation but can’t figure out how to solve a problem.
What’s the point of teaching stuff to kids who don’t have reading comprehension. Interesting. It’s easy to make kids parrot words, but without interest, where is the comprehension? I’d say that your comprehension demands towards kids are screwed up because you are asking adult level comprehension levels out of children who aren’t there yet developmentally.
Why some East Asians do so well and figure out how to do that with failing Americans. This warrants its own point. First Asians generally have excellent computation skills and generally poor problem solving skills in relation. There’s a long argument I could make, you wouldn’t listen anyway. Second, do you understand the pressure Asian parents put on their kids for success? Third, the suicide rates in most high performing Asian countries is horrific amongst students due to the pressure. Lastly, if you can’t hang, you are washed out. All you see are the high performers. The low performers are never publicly shown, and are generally washed out of their systems pretty quickly.
High end schools are simply the product of the environment and less about any actual teaching. Some of your better teachers as far as instruction work in lower performing schools.
You make the money statement again. Ok listen. I’m maxed at my pay scale. I’m dang good at my job. My 23 year old daughter with her liberal arts degree makes more than I do. And her career is just starting. Mine is maxed, and I actually earn less each year due to insurance. So, you complain about money? Heck I could go to amazon, and wishing 2-3 years be making more than I do as a teacher. In places fast food managers make more than teachers. You demand good teaching, but you don’t want to pay for it.

 

[Goatman saint]

I just reaffirmed your post. Do you have a disagreement?

You didn’t reaffirm my post. You dug into basically human breeding in a way that is just head scratching.
My focus was, and is socially what is the male identity? Roles, expectations and such that were male expectations have changed. It’s not about breeding and passing on genes. It’s about where you fit in the world. What’s the role, what’s the place. It has nothing to do with breeding essentially.
Also, and here’s something you keep missing. This younger generation is different. Their values and what they expect out of life are much different than yours. They are by far more creative and risk taking than any other generation, and are way more socially active. If you are getting ready to retire then you think much along a boomer mentality, even though you may be early gen x. I can see with how you approach education, people who are different, people who have less than you that you don’t look outside your box. You have the keeping up with the Jones mentality, when that’s not really what this new generation is about.
You and your mindset towards education is exactly what my kids rant against as failing them where they are at right now as they start their career. Fortunately they have the critical thinking and creativity to overcome years of brain dead rote learning that peppers your every comment

And as far as taking away kids from parents it does not work. Ever. Didn’t work for native Americans. Doesn’t work with foster children. If you knew anything at all about what you speak you wouldnt

 

[MT15]

If that chart hasn‘t adjusted the expenditures for inflation, it’s meaningless. Did you look at the number of years that were covered on the x axis?

This is just basic stuff.

 

[Paul]

You didn’t reaffirm my post. You dug into basically human breeding in a way that is just head scratching.
My focus was, and is socially what is the male identity? Roles, expectations and such that were male expectations have changed. It’s not about breeding and passing on genes. It’s about where you fit in the world. What’s the role, what’s the place. It has nothing to do with breeding essentially.

OK. you are looking at this as a social construct and ignore the biology of evolution.

Biological aspects of sexual dimorphism

The phenomenon of sexual dimorphism is a direct product of evolution by natural selection, in that the struggle for reproductive success drives many male and female organisms down different evolutionary paths.

Sexual Dimorphism

www2.nau.edu

Also, and here’s something you keep missing. This younger generation is different. Their values and what they expect out of life are much different than yours. They are by far more creative and risk taking than any other generation, and are way more socially active.

Some are creative and risk taking, but many others favor socialism and live with their parents well into adulthood. The new generation is on the cell phone and not socializing as much as baby boomers.

But while they may seem like a cultural anomaly, the National Center for Health Statistics finds virginity is on the rise. The number of virgins between the ages of 15 to 24 has increased in recent years – 27 percent of men and 29 percent of women say they have never had a sexual encounter.

The O Factor: Virginity on the Rise, Studies Show

Get breaking national and world news, broadcast video coverage, and exclusive interviews. Find the top news online at ABC news.

abcnews.go.com

If you are getting ready to retire then you think much along a boomer mentality, even though you may be early gen x. I can see with how you approach education, people who are different, people who have less than you that you don’t look outside your box. You have the keeping up with the Jones mentality, when that’s not really what this new generation is about.
You and your mindset towards education is exactly what my kids rant against as failing them where they are at right now as they start their career. Fortunately they have the critical thinking and creativity to overcome years of brain dead rote learning that peppers your every comment

I actually agree with you here. My son in law is runs his own company with 20 employees in a field that has nothing to do with the subject he majored in college.

And as far as taking away kids from parents it does not work. Ever. Didn’t work for native Americans. Doesn’t work with foster children. If you knew anything at all about what you speak you wouldnt

I am no fan of boarding school. The question is: How do you improve a home environment that is optimal for education?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I say give them the high end school, but let's provide room and board to the children from awful homes.

I am no fan of boarding school.

Which is it, Paul?

 

[samiam5211]

The strongest, largest, and most most aggressive were naturally selected to pass their DNA. The weak small ones did not get to pass much DNA. That is why on the average men are larger, stronger, and more aggressive than women.

So did the stronger, larger, and more aggressive DNA not get passed to their daughters as well?

I think your theory about why the average man is larger and stronger than the average women is a little off there bud.

 

[SystemShock]

Humans have sexual dimorphism and hence the female and male are not different. The dimorphism had to do with males battling each other for the privilege of mating with the awaiting female. The strongest, largest, and most most aggressive were naturally selected to pass their DNA. The weak small ones did not get to pass much DNA. That is why on the average men are larger, stronger, and more aggressive than women.

... and you wonder why the U.S. is behind in science.

Or should I chalk this one up to Latin America?

 

[Paul]

... and you wonder why the U.S. is behind in science.

Or should I chalk this one up to Latin America?

You use insulting racist remarks to hide your lack of knowledge.

 

[Paul]

So did the stronger, larger, and more aggressive DNA not get passed to their daughters as well?

I think your theory about why the average man is larger and stronger than the average women is a little off there bud.

Sam: You always come up with great comments. The sexual dimorphism between the human male and female is mild and can only be observed in a group and not always at the individual level. Yes some men are shorter than some females, but on the average men are taller.

In the United States, the mean mass of an adult male is 78.5 kg, while the adult female mean is 62.0 kg. However the standard deviation of male body mass is 12.6 kg, so 10% of adult males are actually lighter than the female average.

Sexual Dimorphism

www2.nau.edu

 

[Paul]

Which is it, Paul?

I am not a fan, but if I have to choose between boarding school and a highly dysfunctional home I pick the boarding school.
That was weak CD.

 

[samiam5211]

Sam: You always come up with great comments. The sexual dimorphism between the human male and female is mild and can only be observed in a group and not always at the individual level. Yes some men are shorter than some females, but on the average men are taller.

In the United States, the mean mass of an adult male is 78.5 kg, while the adult female mean is 62.0 kg. However the standard deviation of male body mass is 12.6 kg, so 10% of adult males are actually lighter than the female average.

Sexual Dimorphism

www2.nau.edu

yea, i wasn't disputing that men are stronger and bigger than women. I was disputing your common sense reasons as to how it got that way.

Your post here is non responsive to my point. Like most of the things you post in response to people pointing out that you have no idea what you are talking about.

You are like a drunk uncle with dunning-kruger.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I am not a fan, but if I have to choose between boarding school and a highly dysfunctional home I pick the boarding school.
That was weak CD.

I assure you, it isn't. Your inability to grasp the point does not make it weak.

You are advocating for something you don't like based on your underdeveloped theories that have yet to be supported with anything beyond surface-level thought that demonstrates an inability to think critically.

 

[Goatman saint]

“The new generation is on their cell phones and not as social as adults”.

I’d make the argument having had to manage this coronavirus stuff over the past 2 years that the younger group is far more social than anyone gives them credit for. It may not look how you view communication, but they are very in touch with each other. I’d be willing to say they are far better at communication, where they may fail is one on one face to face. But that’s only one portion of communication.

I dunno where your socialism comment works in. That one just baffles me. Or is that just the hip new way of calling someone lazy? I’m reminded of a story my wife told me. A coworkers son was always online. Messing around. Wouldn’t get a job. His son had his dad do his taxes. Through his YouTube channel he was making more than his dad was. Not saying that’s every young person, but some are making surprising money in ways you just can’t imagine.
Your hang up on evolution i still don’t get.

I am not a fan, but if I have to choose between boarding school and a highly dysfunctional home I pick the boarding school.
That was weak CD.

And there is data nowhere that supports that. None. Why do you think short of extreme cases kids are never taken from parents?