Tyre Nichols killing by Memphis police (1 Viewer)

[Lapaz]

I wanted to discuss the odd statistical anomaly about the races of the 5 cops that killed Tryre Nichols. I looked up the demographics of the Memphis police department, and 67% are white, 9% hispanic, and only 13% are black. That's only 89%, so I guess the rest are either a smaller racial group such as asians, or they didn't declare a race, in which case they are probably of mixed race. The 5 cops that were charged were all clearly black, not mixed race. I'm not a statistical expert, but I think the odds that all of the cops would be clearly black are 0.13^5, which is a 0.0037% chance of all cops being black, without any other intervening factors. It got me wondering about whether this extremely unlikely statistical anomaly could've happened without some type of internal Memphis policy. There could be other explanations, but I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I'm expecting this angle to be explored. If the Memphis police department is using such a policy, I blame it on our society making everything so racial that it is affecting how the police department decides to assign cops to avoid bad perceptions.

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly. Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show. They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice. If so, then the Memphis police department deserves praise for acting quickly, rather than spinning it as a negative.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation. I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers. Dan Abrams just told his callers that it is a media creation about black men being killed more often, but then he also went on to say that more blacks have unjustified interactions, which I think is also more of a media creation. I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions, rather than race. Media over-coverage is the same reason that many people seem to believe that murder rates are much worse today than decades ago, despite the data indicating that murder rates have drastically declined.

 

[brandon]

I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments.

How would this work exactly? Are you suggesting that at least some of the cops who actually killed Tyre Nichols were actually white, but they chose to frame black officers instead? That's absurd.

I would assume it was simply a "community policing" policy, where they try to get police officers who are part of the community they're serving to cover that part of the city. Thus, police officers who served this particular part of town, which I'm assuming was predominantly black, was served by officers from that area, who were black.

 

[brandon]

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly.

Something worth considering, but I don't think we'll be able to prove anything one way or another. Regardless, it's not a negative in the sense that a crime was committed and charges were quickly levied. The negative is that it's not done faster all the time, for all cops. The bias is in the white privilege part where feet are dragged - the quick charges should be the standard response.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media.

I don't think you're wrong at all in assuming the racial angle would be played up, more so by Fox rather than CNN, but it would definitely get airtime, and it would be worth discussing. The community policing angle actually helps here in cutting through the noise and getting to the point - bad police officers do bad things, and it may be racist, but it may just be bad policing.

 

[Lapaz]

How would this work exactly? Are you suggesting that at least some of the cops who actually killed Tyre Nichols were actually white, but they chose to frame black officers instead? That's absurd.

I would assume it was simply a "community policing" policy, where they try to get police officers who are part of the community they're serving to cover that part of the city. Thus, police officers who served this particular part of town, which I'm assuming was predominantly black, was served by officers from that area, who were black.

No I’m not suggesting that any of the cops were white. I’m suggesting they don’t dispatch cops of opposite races to avoid bias claims. It could be community policing, but can’t white cops patrol black communities and vice versa? I know that can cause tension, but that’s part of the problem.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly.

There's no way to know one way or the other on this but outside of Derek Chauvin, whose murder of GF that was witnessed by many and led to protests and riots across the nation, I challenge anyone to find an instance where a death of a suspect in police custody was investigated and a decision made this swiftly.

• The victim was stopped on January 7th
• His killers were suspended on January 9th
• The victim died on January 10th
• His killers were fired on January 16th
• His murderers were charged on January 26th

That's 16 days and we still haven't seen the video. Floyd's murder and the subsequent protests and riots put immense pressure on that police department to fire Chauvin and charge him. There has been no such protests and riots with this murder. Some people will claim and wonder if the situation would be different had the races been different. That's a natural thought to have. I wonder that myself but I suspect that I wonder it for a different reason than you do.

Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show.

I noticed in your profile that you are 60 so I guess maybe, another generation, a different way of thinking. But I ask you, don't do this. Don't do what you just did. What's wrong with simply saying you saw a couple of black people making this claim. Your use of "blacks" sparked a myriad of not so positive thoughts in my mind as to why you chose that phrase.

They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice.

When it comes to cops, I don't care what color they are. They are cops and they will cover up for each other regardless of race.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation.

This is another that we really just don't know but we can speculate based on previous experience. I suspect that if it played out the way you postulated it, Fox News would be covering it day and night, MSNBC would be covering it about the same as it's being covered now (7-9 minute segment) and CNN would be somewhere in between both of them.

If you know the demographics argument, why do you ignore it to blame the issue on a media creation? Either you know the argument and accept the facts of it or you know the argument and ignore the facts to point to the problem being a media creation. You can't have it both ways.

I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers.

What creates the fear of cops in black mothers is years and years of experience. I know this from experience. My mother spoke to me at the age of 12 about police and how black men are treated by the police. I was told not to look cops in the face, answer "yes sir" or "no sir" and do exactly what they tell you to do. 3 years later, as a young driver and honor student on my way home from a prestigious predominantly black all boys catholic high school, I was called an "uppidy n-word" by Gretna's finest. Yeah, it's not media that creates fear of cops in black mothers. It's the cops and their actions and the experience of black mothers that do that.

I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions

The suspicious actions are those of the police who knowingly violate people's rights on a regular basis because they have no fear of prosecution. If they get sued in court and lose, it's not their money that gets paid out.

 

[MT15]

You cannot always tell if someone is mixed race just by looking at them, I don’t think. Not that I’m any sort of expert, but I found the statement that you could tell none of the officers were mixed race a bit odd.

 

[Lapaz]

You cannot always tell if someone is mixed race just by looking at them, I don’t think. Not that I’m any sort of expert, but I found the statement that you could tell none of the officers were mixed race a bit odd.

Certainly it's not 100%, but most people associate with certain races based on how they look. None of the officers looked mixed, so I'm fairly certain that they all considered themselves black, so it's doubtful they would be among the 11% or so that didn't list a race.

There's no way to know one way or the other on this but outside of Derek Chauvin, whose murder of GF that was witnessed by many and led to protests and riots across the nation, I challenge anyone to find an instance where a death of a suspect in police custody was investigated and a decision made this swiftly.

• The victim was stopped on January 7th
• His killers were suspended on January 9th
• The victim died on January 10th
• His killers were fired on January 16th
• His murderers were charged on January 26th

That's 16 days and we still haven't seen the video. Floyd's murder and the subsequent protests and riots put immense pressure on that police department to fire Chauvin and charge him. There has been no such protests and riots with this murder. Some people will claim and wonder if the situation would be different had the races been different. That's a natural thought to have. I wonder that myself but I suspect that I wonder it for a different reason than you do.

I knew this claim would come up. It's typical to racialize actions. We may indeed find that this was due to race, and perhaps the police force acted too hastily in charging within 19 days. It seems like enough time, if the evidence is strong, but in other cases, more context and information is needed to make a charging decision. Prosecutors vary in their willingness to charge. We'll see soon enough. I reverse the challenge. Find me any recent case where white officers beat and killed a white suspect that was publicized within 20 days of the occurrence.

I noticed in your profile that you are 60 so I guess maybe, another generation, a different way of thinking. But I ask you, don't do this. Don't do what you just did. What's wrong with simply saying you saw a couple of black people making this claim. Your use of "blacks" sparked a myriad of not so positive thoughts in my mind as to why you chose that phrase.

I in-artfully said blacks, instead of black people in one sentence, but no malice was intended. It was short-hand, but you left out that I said "more whites are killed than blacks". I didn't say more "white people are killed than black people". Later in my post I also said black men, black ladies, and white ladies, so you're cherry picking to try to insinuate prejudice, because you didn't like what I wrote. My take is that you're too sensitive.

This is another that we really just don't know but we can speculate based on previous experience. I suspect that if it played out the way you postulated it, Fox News would be covering it day and night, MSNBC would be covering it about the same as it's being covered now (7-9 minute segment) and CNN would be somewhere in between both of them.

If you know the demographics argument, why do you ignore it to blame the issue on a media creation? Either you know the argument and accept the facts of it or you know the argument and ignore the facts to point to the problem being a media creation. You can't have it both ways.

The demographic argument is nonsense. Very few asians are killed, because cops barely encounter them. Killings can only occur when cops encounter a suspect. I think their is truth to the argument that cops are more suspicious of blacks than whites, but I think there is also truth that blacks commit more crimes than whites. I don't want to get hung up on that, because whatever the reason, the stats show that cop killings are proportional to cop encounters. Complaining that cops kill more blacks than whites relative to their ratio in the population is attacking a symptom implying that cops are racist, when all they do is deal with what's in front of them. They don't do a statistical analysis of the percentage of people of which race they encounter. Should we have cops start stopping more asians to even things out? Why not stop more women so they have more likelihood of getting killed to even those stats out too? Of course that's nonsense, but so is the media creation that cops are killing young black men disproportionally, without the context that they may be committing more crimes. Figure out why cops have to encounter someone, and you'll start to fix the problem. By the way, the solution isn't to stop policing by defunding, because then crime will rise, as they see no law enforcement. The solution is to figure out why the crimes are occurring, and deal with that.

What creates the fear of cops in black mothers is years and years of experience. I know this from experience. My mother spoke to me at the age of 12 about police and how black men are treated by the police. I was told not to look cops in the face, answer "yes sir" or "no sir" and do exactly what they tell you to do. 3 years later, as a young driver and honor student on my way home from a prestigious predominantly black all boys catholic high school, I was called an "uppidy n-word" by Gretna's finest. Yeah, it's not media that creates fear of cops in black mothers. It's the cops and their actions and the experience of black mothers that do that.

I don't accept the argument at face value that cops have it out for young black men. More whites than blacks are killed annually by cops, yet whites (inartful again) get almost zero media coverage. Why aren't white mothers terrified as well? They're not terrified because the media doesn't cover killings of whites by cops. I have a good friend who is black that told me that he instructed his son to resist the cops. He's a smart guy, but I told him that was dumb and dangerous. I told him that he would be much more likely to get hurt with that approach. I tell my boys to respect the police and follow their directions, because the police have power over you that they can abuse. That's a very different approach and life lesson. One can understand the power and potential abusive nature of cops (I've experience police abuse), but teaching kids to resist and not respect the cops is the worst thing that you can do. I don't know if my friend's teachings to his son are representative of the black community, but if they are, it would explain a lot of unfortunate events.

The suspicious actions are those of the police who knowingly violate people's rights on a regular basis because they have no fear of prosecution. If they get sued in court and lose, it's not their money that gets paid out.

I think cops are being held accountable, but I think the pendulum is swinging to a dangerous place that will make society more dangerous, as cops fear being prosecuted for proper actions. I think more black people are going to be allowed to escape during encounters when they run to resist, due to such fears by cops of being prosecuted, and initially that may seem like a win, but in the long run that will lead to more crime. I support accountability of cops. Heck, I wanted the cop that abused me about 35 years ago to be fired. I think he was only reprimanded, but it went on his record, which is the basis for future accountability. On the other hand, I don't want cops to have to pay for their own defense. We already have a hard time getting cops, since it isn't a high paying field, and it is becoming less appealing every day. If they also had to pay for their defense, society would become lawless. We would become a 3rd world nation, where everyone that could afford it would have to pay for body guards. We need to be careful what we ask for.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

.............................................

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black................

They were charged quickly because that was the right thing to do.

 

[MT15]

 

[Lapaz]

They were charged quickly because that was the right thing to do.

Prosecutors usually want to wait until they've studied the evidence to make a charging decision. We'll see as the evidence is revealed if the quick charge was warranted or too hasty.

 

[Lapaz]

The guy that posted this doesn't understand statistics. Statistically it is extraordinary that all 5 were black cops. Since the Memphis police department is only 13% black, the odds that all 5 of the cops would be black is 0.13^5, which is 0.0037%. Someone said earlier that this could be due to community policing, but I heard that the officers were part of an action task force. I don't know if that can also be community policemen.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

...................................................................... We'll see as the evidence is revealed if the quick charge was warranted or too hasty.

Apparently you aren't very familiar with the incident.

 

[coldseat]

I don't accept the argument at face value that cops have it out for young black men. More whites than blacks are killed annually by cops, yet whites (inartful again) get almost zero media coverage. Why aren't white mothers terrified as well? They're not terrified because the media doesn't cover killings of whites by cops.

Is this by pure numbers or percentages? I'm almost certain that the percentage of black people (per police encounters with black citizens) shot and killed by police is larger than the percentage of white people (per police encounters with white citizens) shot and killed by police. Also, the way they where killed matters. Are there more unarmed black people (or percentage of black people) that are killed than white people? Just throwing out a basic fact like "more whites are killed annually by cops" doesn't really mean much without further context.

Also, to @Saintamaniac 's point, this is something the black community has been dealing with for all of their existence in the US. It's a very different reality and history for white people. It would be almost unnatural for their not to be different perceptions and fears by black mothers as opposed to white mothers given the reality of the different histories and experiences by those respective communities.

 

[coldseat]

The guy that posted this doesn't understand statistics. Statistically it is extraordinary that all 5 were black cops. Since the Memphis police department is only 13% black, the odds that all 5 of the cops would be black is 0.13^5, which is 0.0037%. Someone said earlier that this could be due to community policing, but I heard that the officers were part of an action task force. I don't know if that can also be community policemen.

From listening to an NPR report this morning, the 5 officers where part of a special group/taskforce called Scorpion. I don't know what the groups purpose was or why they stopped Tyre Nicols, but the reason they were all together was by design of the department. The officers didn't all randomly show up there and just happen to all be black.

 

[Saintamaniac]

We'll see soon enough. I reverse the challenge. Find me any recent case where white officers beat and killed a white suspect that was publicized within 20 days of the occurrence.

That's not a reverse of my challenge. That's an altogether different challenge. I have a natural bias and I'm pretty sure it came through in my post much the same way that your bias comes through in your response.

I in-artfully said blacks, instead of black people in one sentence, but no malice was intended. It was short-hand, but you left out that I said "more whites are killed than blacks". I didn't say more "white people are killed than black people". Later in my post I also said black men, black ladies, and white ladies, so you're cherry picking to try to insinuate prejudice, because you didn't like what I wrote. My take is that you're too sensitive.

My take is that you're far too defensive. I simply asked you not to refer to black people as "blacks". You correcting yourself later in your paragraph is tantamount to using a slur in one sentence and then not using a slur. Is is too much for me to ask you to not refer to black people as "blacks"?

Should we have cops start stopping more asians to even things out? Why not stop more women so they have more likelihood of getting killed to even those stats out too? Of course that's nonsense, but so is the media creation that cops are killing young black men disproportionally, without the context that they may be committing more crimes.

I agree that it is nonsense that it is a media creation.

By the way, the solution isn't to stop policing by defunding, because then crime will rise, as they see no law enforcement. The solution is to figure out why the crimes are occurring, and deal with that.

You interjected defunding the police. I think defunding the police was a stupid idea from the start. The solution is the end of qualified immunity. Full stop.

I don't accept the argument at face value that cops have it out for young black men.

I never made that argument.

More whites than blacks are killed annually by cops, yet whites (inartful again) get almost zero media coverage.

I disagree.

One can understand the power and potential abusive nature of cops (I've experience police abuse), but teaching kids to resist and not respect the cops is the worst thing that you can do. I don't know if my friend's teachings to his son are representative of the black community, but if they are, it would explain a lot of unfortunate events.

I don't know any black folks that teach their kids to resist police. That's counterintuitive to coming out of an encounter alive.

I think cops are being held accountable, but I think the pendulum is swinging to a dangerous place that will make society more dangerous, as cops fear being prosecuted for proper actions.

More cops are being held accountable because their interactions are being captured on video. Prior to video, whatever the cop said was exactly what happened. Cops should fear being prosecuted when they break the law just like anyone else.

I don't want cops to have to pay for their own defense. We already have a hard time getting cops, since it isn't a high paying field, and it is becoming less appealing every day. If they also had to pay for their defense, society would become lawless. We would become a 3rd world nation, where everyone that could afford it would have to pay for body guards. We need to be careful what we ask for.

Cops should have to insure themselves just like doctors do. Cops have the ability to end someone's life. If they have to insure themselves, they would be far less inclined to break the law because they would know that there is no safety blanket to cover them when they violate someone's rights. Is it really too much to ask the people who are charged with enforcing the law to follow the laws they enforce? I'm sorry. That dog don't hunt for me.

 

[Optimus Prime]

posted this on EE

this video is going to be really bad
=======================

Video footage of a traffic stop that led to the deadly beating of a 29-year-old Black man shows “acts that defy humanity,” the Memphis chief told CNN’s Don Lemon on Friday.

“You’re going to see a disregard for life, duty of care that we’re all sworn to and a level of physical interaction that is above and beyond what is required in law enforcement,” Chief Cerelyn “CJ” Davis said.

“Individuals watching will feel what the family felt. And if you don’t, then you’re not a human being. And we all are human beings. And I think there will be a measure of sadness, as well.”…….

Police officials in a number of major cities nationwide have said they are monitoring for any possible public outcry this weekend over what will be seen in the video footage.

Nichols’ mother, RowVaughn Wells, is asking for supporters to be peaceful during demonstrations, saying at a vigil in Memphis on Thursday that she wants “each and every one of you to protest in peace.”

“I don’t want us burning up our cities, tearing up the streets, because that’s not what my son stood for,” she said. “And if you guys are here for me and Tyre, then you will protest peacefully.” …….

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday

 

[Optimus Prime]

They were charged quickly because that was the right thing to do.

I'm skeptical of this. We have way too many examples when the right thing to do either was delayed far too long or never done at all not to be skeptical

 

[Lapaz]

Is this by pure numbers or percentages? I'm almost certain that the percentage of black people (per police encounters with black citizens) shot and killed by police is larger than the percentage of white people (per police encounters with white citizens) shot and killed by police. Also, the way they where killed matters. Are there more unarmed black people (or percentage of black people) that are killed than white people? Just throwing out a basic fact like "more whites are killed annually by cops" doesn't really mean much without further context.

Also, to @Saintamaniac 's point, this is something the black community has been dealing with for all of their existence in the US. It's a very different reality and history for white people. It would be almost unnatural for their not to be different perceptions and fears by black mothers as opposed to white mothers given the reality of the different histories and experiences by those respective communities.

Last year I posted the percentage of blacks killed per encounter compared to whites killed per encounter, and whites were killed by a very slightly higher percentage, but it was essentially statistically even. The statistic that is frequently posted in the media about blacks being more likely to be killed is based on the demographic percentage of blacks versus whites. Getting into details about being armed vs unarmed matters to individual cases, but I venture to guess that it will also end up being even. I agree that context matters a lot, but the media doesn't give the context. However, the most important criteria to determine whether police are mistreating blacks more than whites or others, is to assess them as a percentage of encounters. The percentage of the population is irrelevant, unless the problem is innocent blacks are much more likely to be encountered than whites. Maybe blacks are being mistreated more in general per encounter, but the stats don't support that they are being killed more per encounter. Show me that statistic, and then I'll change my mind.

History doesn't reflect today. By analogy, just because Jews were persecuted by Germans 80 years ago, doesn't make Germans bad today. Likewise, just because whites abused blacks 80 years ago, doesn't mean they are equally likely to abuse them today. It's also like the murder analogy that I gave. Just because murders were much more likely 40 years ago, doesn't mean that we should fear being murdered just as much today. We have to recognize changes, and attack the current problems honestly, not make up a disparate treatment not supported by the facts.