Trump-appointed Sec. of Navy departs over differences with Commander in Chief over “rule of law” and “good order and discipline” (1 Viewer)

[superchuck500]

 

[Archies Ghost]

A direct quote

Spencer had “proposed a deal whereby if the president allowed the Navy to handle the case, he would guarantee that Eddie Gallagher would be restored to rank, allowed to retain his Trident and permitted to retire,” Esper said Monday.

Esper says Trump ordered him to stop SEAL review board

WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Mark Esper declared Monday that President Donald Trump ordered him to stop a disciplinary review of a Navy SEAL accused of battlefield misconduct, an intervention that

www.news-journal.com

I give up.

The only evidence you (collectively) accept when it is counter to your chosen narrative is sworn videotaped affidavits witnessed by Jesus and three apostles, Satan and the ghost of Thurgood Marshall yet any wild rumor that fits the narrative is accepted as incontrovertible evidence.

Impossible to any sort of reasonable conversation on those terms.

 

[RegularChuck]

A direct quote

Esper says Trump ordered him to stop SEAL review board

WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Mark Esper declared Monday that President Donald Trump ordered him to stop a disciplinary review of a Navy SEAL accused of battlefield misconduct, an intervention that

www.news-journal.com

I give up.

The only evidence you (collectively) accept when it is counter to your chosen narrative is sworn videotaped affidavits witnessed by Jesus and three apostles, Satan and the ghost of Thurgood Marshall yet any wild rumor that fits the narrative is accepted as incontrovertible evidence.

Impossible to any sort of reasonable conversation on those terms.

I’d give up too if I ran into someone demanding such impossible standards. Can’t blame you.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

I’d give up too if I ran into someone demanding such impossible standards. Can’t blame you.

Oh, the irony!!!

It is always good to see cognitive dissonance exhibited in real time.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

A direct quote

Esper says Trump ordered him to stop SEAL review board

WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Mark Esper declared Monday that President Donald Trump ordered him to stop a disciplinary review of a Navy SEAL accused of battlefield misconduct, an intervention that

www.news-journal.com

I give up.

The only evidence you (collectively) accept when it is counter to your chosen narrative is sworn videotaped affidavits witnessed by Jesus and three apostles, Satan and the ghost of Thurgood Marshall yet any wild rumor that fits the narrative is accepted as incontrovertible evidence.

Impossible to any sort of reasonable conversation on those terms.

It is not my chosen narrative, I asked for a direct quote for something YOU believed was said by someone.

It is reasonable to believe that the SecDef and SecNav has had detailed discussions revolving around the Gallagher case and that both men understood each others opinions on the matter. Once POTUS made his demands Esper said yes sir and Spencer said yeah but. Spencer was fired for taking his "yeah, but" (my quote) to the WH without SecDef permission. End of story.

 

[MT15]

A direct quote

Esper says Trump ordered him to stop SEAL review board

WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Mark Esper declared Monday that President Donald Trump ordered him to stop a disciplinary review of a Navy SEAL accused of battlefield misconduct, an intervention that

www.news-journal.com

I give up.

The only evidence you (collectively) accept when it is counter to your chosen narrative is sworn videotaped affidavits witnessed by Jesus and three apostles, Satan and the ghost of Thurgood Marshall yet any wild rumor that fits the narrative is accepted as incontrovertible evidence.

Impossible to any sort of reasonable conversation on those terms.

well, that trend goes both ways, my friend. And I don’t really have a narrative here, other than I think Trump shouldn’t have fat fingered his way into the deal at all.

I agree that Esper said that Spencer proposed a rigged review. I never doubted you, I just said it doesn’t make sense that someone who feels he has taken the high road (Spencer) would propose a shady deal like that. And then when it comes out not say that he was wrong to propose such a rigged deal. It just didn’t make sense. Still doesn’t.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

well, that trend goes both ways, my friend. And I don’t really have a narrative here, other than I think Trump shouldn’t have fat fingered his way into the deal at all.

I agree that Esper said that Spencer proposed a rigged review. I never doubted you, I just said it doesn’t make sense that someone who feels he has taken the high road (Spencer) would propose a shady deal like that. And then when it comes out not say that he was wrong to propose such a rigged deal. It just didn’t make sense. Still doesn’t.

Ousted Navy Secretary Richard Spencer defends handling of Navy SEAL case

Richard Spencer spoke to CBS News correspondent David Martin on Monday

www.cbsnews.com

I disagree with the assertion that Spencer proposed a rigged review board. The review board would have been seated with flag officers and it would have require all of them to discredit their oaths to office. Spencer wanted the Navy to be free to conduct their review, knowing that whatever the board's findings were, he had the authority overrule their decision.

Now this is pure speculation on my part, I think Spencer was hoping he would not have to make that call as the review board's decision would have pressured trump into backing off of his position. trump may have thought the same thing, which is why he adamant about shutting down the review board.

 

[coldseat]

Trumps thinking and reasoning for askewing justice in the Gallegar case:

"Just this week I stuck up for three great warriors against the deep state. You know what I'm talking about," Trump said. "And so many people said, 'Sir, I don't think you should do that.' "

But during his rally in Florida on Tuesday, Trump argued that "people have to be able to fight."

"They can't think, 'Gee whiz, if I make a mistake' ... they wanted to put them in jail for 25 years," the President said.

"I will always stick up for our great fighters. People can sit there in air conditioned offices and complain, but it doesn't matter to me whatsoever," he said.

Trump defends military pardons over objections from ‘deep state’ at Florida rally | CNN Politics

President Donald Trump touted his move to intervene in the cases of three service members accused of war crimes at a campaign rally on Tuesday, framing the objections he faced from senior Pentagon officials as coming from the “deep state.”

www.cnn.com

The deep state does everything now and apparently includes the whole of military leadership, smh. I also didn't realize that "fighting" including posing in pictures with dead corps. And then there's the irony of a guy who's lived his whole life in an air conditioned office talking disparagingly about what generals, who have actually served and fought in the field, "complain" is necessary for order among the ranks. Yeah, because he would know.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-spencer-i-was-fired-as-navy-secretary-heres-what-ive-learned-because-of-it/2019/11/27/9c2e58bc-1092-11ea-bf62-eadd5d11f559_story.html

President Trump involved himself in the case almost from the start. Before the trial began, in March, I received two calls from the president asking me to lift Gallagher’s confinement in a Navy brig; I pushed back twice, because the presiding judge, acting on information about the accused’s conduct, had decided that confinement was important. Eventually, the president ordered me to have him transferred to the equivalent of an enlisted barracks. I came to believe that Trump’s interest in the case stemmed partly from the way the defendant’s lawyers and others had worked to keep it front and center in the media.

Given my desire to resolve a festering issue, I tried to find a way that would prevent the president from further involvement while trying all avenues to get Gallagher’s file in front of a peer-review board. Why? The Naval Special Warfare community owns the Trident pin, not the secretary of the Navy, not the defense secretary, not even the president. If the review board concluded that Gallagher deserved to keep it, so be it.
I also began to work without personally consulting Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper on every step. That was, I see in retrospect, a mistake for which I am solely responsible.

It's weird that POTUS bypassed SecDef and ordered SecNav directly...several times.

SEAL officers in Eddie Gallagher case to keep tridents, acting Navy secretary says

Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly on Wednesday directed Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday to terminate Navy SEAL Trident review boards for three officers connected to the Eddie Gallagher case.

www.foxnews.com

Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly on Wednesday directed Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday to terminate Navy SEAL Trident review boards for three officers connected to the Eddie Gallagher case.

“I have determined that any failures in conduct, performance, judgment or professionalism exhibited by these officers be addressed through other administrative measures as appropriate, such as letters of instruction or performance observations on their officer fitness reports," Modly said in a statement.

The Navy did not deserve the "continued distraction and negative attention that recent events have evoked," he added.

 

[wardorican]

Here is the quote from the piece directly attributing the word fix to Esper

Esper says Trump ordered him to stop SEAL review board

WASHINGTON (AP) — Defense Secretary Mark Esper declared Monday that President Donald Trump ordered him to stop a disciplinary review of a Navy SEAL accused of battlefield misconduct, an intervention that raised questions about America’s commitment to international standards for battlefield ethics.

apnews.com

I will trust the AP to pick the words carefully, because Esper said them. Without a better story, I'd be careful about how much meaning we glean from it.

Overall, it seems like this was all mostly a reaction due to Trump getting personally involved. So, why did he? He clearly can, but most agree he shouldn't have.

Seems like the advocate has ties to Guiliani and then the Seal changes his legal team to one that has worked for Trump (or Guuliani, if I read it wrong). Some conservative pundit probably found a use for this and knew he could get Trump to make this a thing. We will see what gain is gotten from those folks.

The SECNAV didn't agree, and likely, in an effort to persuade Trump, either gave that ridiculous deal, or lied to convince Trump to stay out of it. That was stupid. Esper at least tried to salvage something from it, by calling for a legal review of ethics training. They want this out of the news to avoid future issues where the president gets involved (my opinion). I have no issues with him being fired for that misstep.

I will say, I'm not sure how many soldiers, sailors, airmen, or marines are supportive of letting a guy off the hook, when they kept a higher code of conduct. Definitely sure those that got hit with much lesser crimes, and punished by reduced rank, benefits, etc are very upset.

 

[superchuck500]

Trumps thinking and reasoning for askewing justice in the Gallegar case:

Trump defends military pardons over objections from ‘deep state’ at Florida rally | CNN Politics

President Donald Trump touted his move to intervene in the cases of three service members accused of war crimes at a campaign rally on Tuesday, framing the objections he faced from senior Pentagon officials as coming from the “deep state.”

www.cnn.com

The deep state does everything now and apparently includes the whole of military leadership, smh. I also didn't realize that "fighting" including posing in pictures with dead corps. And then there's the irony of a guy who's lived his whole life in an air conditioned office talking disparagingly about what generals, who have actually served and fought in the field, "complain" is necessary for order among the ranks. Yeah, because he would know.

I think it's pretty obvious that Trump views life and the world as a struggle to achieve victory - and in that struggle there should be no rules. He basically says as much in his book and it explains why he has little regard for the rule of law and convention. He views 'war crimes' as something committed by losers. He has difficulty spotting where conduct tailored to help him win might actually cross a line into the unacceptable. There is no unacceptable for him.

Many people agree. It's a moral question, really, and one that has been with humans since civilization was born.

The War-Crimes President

When violence is directed at those Trump’s supporters hate and fear, they see such excesses not as crimes but as virtues.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[wardorican]

I think it's pretty obvious that Trump views life and the world as a struggle to achieve victory - and in that struggle there should be no rules. He basically says as much in his book and it explains why he has little regard for the rule of law and convention. He views 'war crimes' as something committed by losers. He has difficulty spotting where conduct tailored to help him win might actually cross a line into the unacceptable. There is no unacceptable for him.

Many people agree. It's a moral question, really, and one that has been with humans since civilization was born.

The War-Crimes President

When violence is directed at those Trump’s supporters hate and fear, they see such excesses not as crimes but as virtues.

www.theatlantic.com

It is strikingly similar to how extremists think, like Jihadists. The mission at all costs. Victory at all costs. Punish your enemies at all costs.

 

[MT15]

It’s not what America should be, it’s not how our leaders should behave.