The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (9 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Absentee voting is usually done by request from the voter and in some states it is illegal to just randomly send everyone a absentee ballot. I could see cases where fraud might be a big player in that. Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Absentee voting is usually done by request from the voter and in some states it is illegal to just randomly send everyone a absentee ballot. I could see cases where fraud might be a big player in that. Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

Fraud has not been a big player in any states that have implemented this sort of practice. Oregon has been doing it for decades and their levels of fraud are amongst the lowest in the country.

And why not just do it in person? Becuase during a pandemic of this nature voting in person intorduces an unnecessary risk of spreading the virus(and fear of spread will reasonably suppress participation) when we have a completely secure and viable alternative that all but eliminates that unnecessary risk.

If you are claiming fraud will be a big problem, the burden is on you to make that case, as the evidence we have from states like Oregon show the opposite has been true so far.

 

[insidejob]

Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

History and science both suggest that there will be a second wave of this virus that will be worse than we've already had and that wave will come when the weather gets cold. With the election being in November, it's only prudent to set up a system for the entire country to be able to safely cast their ballot and in person voting very well may not be possible. What do we do then? Why not prepare for the worst case scenario and if we don't have to use it, great?

 

[superchuck500]

Absentee voting is usually done by request from the voter and in some states it is illegal to just randomly send everyone a absentee ballot. I could see cases where fraud might be a big player in that. Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

You can already choose to vote by mail in 30 states. I agree that just en-masse mailing out ballots is taking it too far. But if 30 states already allow it, new ones seeking to add it (especially in a pandemic) shouldn’t be ridiculed with an effort that treats it like an affront to Democracy.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

You can already choose to vote by mail in 30 states. I agree that just en-masse mailing out ballots is taking it too far. But if 30 states already allow it, new ones seeking to add it (especially in a pandemic) shouldn’t be ridiculed with an effort that treats it like an affront to Democracy.

Why?

Oregon has been doing this for 20 years, Washington, Hawaii, and Colorado do it now as well. It has not increased fraud, it has not led to any documented abuse, it has not been less secure. By all accounts the only real effect has been increased efficiency and participation, both things we should be valuing in a democratic system.

It takes initial investment and initiative, and maybe not every state can have it for this November, but we have so much organizational knoweldge of how to do this from start to finish that it’s not like it is some monumental task any more than the task that will be presented in trying to re-organize our elections to account for Covid. And as you point out, the majority of states already have the basic infrastructure in place to distribute, receive, and count mail in ballots.

You can also verify and check your ballot once it is sent. Which is an additional check and layer of transparency a lot of in-person elections dont have.

 

[insidejob]

If you're registered to vote, what's so hard about sending ballots to everyone who's registered to vote? I just don't see the problem here.

 

[superchuck500]

Why?

Oregon has been doing this for 20 years, Washington, Hawaii, and Colorado do it now as well. It has not increased fraud, it has not led to any documented abuse, it has not been less secure. By all accounts the only real effect has been increased efficiency and participation, both things we should be valuing in a democratic system.

It takes initial investment and initiative, and maybe not every state can have it for this November, but we have so much organizational knoweldge of how to do this from start to finish that it’s not like it is some monumental task any more than the task that will be presented in trying to re-organize our elections to account for Covid. And as you point out, the majority of states already have the basic infrastructure in place to distribute, receive, and count mail in ballots.

You can also verify and check your ballot once it is sent. Which is an additional check and layer of transparency a lot of in-person elections dont have.

If there is a full, developed process in place - I’m down. If states just rush to do this by some order to send out ballots, it might be problematic- that’s what I was referring to.

 

[MT15]

So far, my impression is that the states are just sending out mass mailings of absentee ballot applications. And that several Republican leaning states are doing the exact same thing that Michigan and Nevada did. I think I saw Idaho mentioned as having done the exact same, without a presidential tweet threatening to withhold funds from them.

To Tony: at risk people can choose not to frequent a Walmart or a Home Depot, but if you require them to vote in person they cannot avoid that exposure. We need to be ready to have an entirely by mail election in case the timing of a second wave interferes. Everybody deserves to vote without risking exposure to the virus.

I also saw this opinion: that mail-in ballots are safer from voter fraud because there is a permanent record with a signature, and if you commit fraud with an absentee ballot, you can tack on mail fraud to the other charges. I don’t think there is much history of mail-in voter fraud, if any. There was a case of election fraud involving absentee ballots recently in NC, perpetrated by a Republican candidate. He got caught, even by his own party, so I don’t think it’s as easy to get away with as people think.

 

[insidejob]

If there is a full, developed process in place - I’m down. If states just rush to do this by some order to send out ballots, it might be problematic- that’s what I was referring to.

That's why I think they should start putting vote by mail measures into place now and not wait until they'd have to do a half assed job of it. That whole better safe than sorry thing.

 

[Lapaz]

So far, my impression is that the states are just sending out mass mailings of absentee ballot applications. And that several Republican leaning states are doing the exact same thing that Michigan and Nevada did. I think I saw Idaho mentioned as having done the exact same, without a presidential tweet threatening to withhold funds from them.

To Tony: at risk people can choose not to frequent a Walmart or a Home Depot, but if you require them to vote in person they cannot avoid that exposure. We need to be ready to have an entirely by mail election in case the timing of a second wave interferes. Everybody deserves to vote without risking exposure to the virus.

I also saw this opinion: that mail-in ballots are safer from voter fraud because there is a permanent record with a signature, and if you commit fraud with an absentee ballot, you can tack on mail fraud to the other charges. I don’t think there is much history of mail-in voter fraud, if any. There was a case of election fraud involving absentee ballots recently in NC, perpetrated by a Republican candidate. He got caught, even by his own party, so I don’t think it’s as easy to get away with as people think.

I'm concerned about smarter people trying to commit the same fraud that the North Carolina Republican candidate tried to commit. I think Russians would be more savvy. Also, I think all ballots should be paper backed by an electronic reading machine, whether by mail or in-person. Given both are paper, then the mail-in is more vulnerable, but it can be made more secure with systems used by banks that require a second confirmation method. Also, if someone is willing to commit widespread fraud sufficient to swing selected counties, then they won't care about mail fraud.

We need to work on this, because we will likely be in the midst of a second wave, and will have a lot of suppressed votes without a good alternative voting method.

 

[not2rich]

Absentee voting is usually done by request from the voter and in some states it is illegal to just randomly send everyone a absentee ballot. I could see cases where fraud might be a big player in that. Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

I'd like to see voting by mail - not just "absentee" voting - done in every state like it is in mine. Plenty of people have to work on voting day, and some are unfortunate enough to have to wait in ridiculous lines with ridiculous waits. That was before the pandemic. Voting should be equally convenient or inconvenient for every citizen.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Absentee voting is usually done by request from the voter and in some states it is illegal to just randomly send everyone a absentee ballot. I could see cases where fraud might be a big player in that. Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

You must not have seen that video from election day in Wisconsin.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

If there is a full, developed process in place - I’m down. If states just rush to do this by some order to send out ballots, it might be problematic- that’s what I was referring to.

That’s definitely fair.

I would just think no one in power would want to do it haphazardly knowing any screw up would immediately be used to invalidate the idea by the right and they would immediately be roundly condemned. Likely be a dead politician walking.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Fraud has not been a big player in any states that have implemented this sort of practice. Oregon has been doing it for decades and their levels of fraud are amongst the lowest in the country.

And why not just do it in person? Becuase during a pandemic of this nature voting in person intorduces an unnecessary risk of spreading the virus(and fear of spread will reasonably suppress participation) when we have a completely secure and viable alternative that all but eliminates that unnecessary risk.

If you are claiming fraud will be a big problem, the burden is on you to make that case, as the evidence we have from states like Oregon show the opposite has been true so far.

No it’s not on me. You say it’s completely secure so are you saying the USPS is completely secure? If you are 100% convinced fraud will not be a problem then what happens if Norma Jean your friendly mail handler puts your ballot in the other Bronco’s mailbox and he’s half blind with a slight case of dementia so he votes for you both? I’m in favor of limited absentee voting like we have now.

 

[wardorican]

Why are the MAGAs in my Facebook feed all of a sudden horrified at the prospect of vote by mail - especially in a pandemic? I have seen more than one person describe it as the most appalling attack on Democracy in US history.

What’s the big deal? In the 2016 and 2018 elections, about 40% of ballots were cast by “alternative” means - most commonly by mail. Three states already, by 2018, had a full mail-in ballot system - and 27 states allow a mailed absentee ballot upon request without any showing of contingent circumstances.

In other words, in 30 states you can already vote by mail if you want to - and nearly 4 in 10 votes in the last two elections weren’t made at the precinct on Election Day, rather most were done by mail.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2018/demo/P20-582.pdf

Voter Turnout Rates Among All Voting Age and Major Racial and Ethnic Groups Were Higher Than in 2014

New Census Bureau data show that voting increased among all voting age and major racial and ethnic groups.

www.census.gov

Voting by mail and absentee voting | MIT Election Lab

electionlab.mit.edu

I think the push back is simple. With so many urban areas under lock downs for COVID-19, they are likely in greater need to have mail in ballots, since there may be a bigger desire to avoid crowds and voting locations.

So, mail in ballots cures that problem for those voters. However, having urban voters unable to vote, is a huge win for most Republican candidates.

I can't think of another reason to be against it. I've been voting by mail for the last 3-4 elections.

 

[wardorican]

Absentee voting is usually done by request from the voter and in some states it is illegal to just randomly send everyone a absentee ballot. I could see cases where fraud might be a big player in that. Here’s the bigger question for me. If it’s ok to go to Walmart or Home Depot then why can’t we figure out a way to vote in person and stick to the rules as is.

Many states, the rules already allow for mail in voting. Not just absentee, like Michigan. But, if you just want to vote by mail. Florida has been doing it that way for years. You don't need an excuse to request it.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

History and science both suggest that there will be a second wave of this virus that will be worse than we've already had and that wave will come when the weather gets cold. With the election being in November, it's only prudent to set up a system for the entire country to be able to safely cast their ballot and in person voting very well may not be possible. What do we do then? Why not prepare for the worst case scenario and if we don't have to use it, great?

Just think how well history and science have benefited us this wave. The models have sucked because of bad data (climate change) If there’s anything we can learn from history it’s that democrats have always been shown to have a higher participation rate in the after death age group. So let’s first work on making sure that your great-great-great-great-great grandfather doesn’t vote this election and then we’ll nail down telepathic voting.

 

[wardorican]

No it’s not on me. You say it’s completely secure so are you saying the USPS is completely secure? If you are 100% convinced fraud will not be a problem then what happens if Norma Jean your friendly mail handler puts your ballot in the other Bronco’s mailbox and he’s half blind with a slight case of dementia so he votes for you both? I’m in favor of limited absentee voting like we have now.

He'd have the forge the signature well enough to pass, and the person who requested the ballot can look up online to see that it has been sent, and when you send it back.. when it is received and then counted. So, if I requested a ballot and it never came and I saw that it was "received" by them, I'd report it.

but that pretty much never happens. Never happened once to me.