The Separation of Church and State (1 Viewer)

Maxp

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Driving back to south Alabama from Tennessee last Thanksgiving I was passed by a sheriff's deputy whose patrol vehicle had "IN GOD WE TRUST" printed on the side. The labeling was as large, if not larger, than the word "POLICE." This happened in one of the northern counties, not sure which one. It was a surprisingly jarring moment for me. In my mind, this was screaming passed the line of separation of church and state. Then today, I noticed a local Baldwin County sheriff's department vehicle with the same phrase printed much smaller on the back of the patrol vehicle. My personal belief is that all such verbiage on public property should be removed, especially when it's on law enforcement vehicles.
 

DaveXA

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Imma stop you right there.

The Christian church is made up of all believers. Christian denominations are part of the Christian church.

Fair amount of scripture to support this.


And there are definitely churches out there that call themselves non-denominational, or just “Christian.”

Sure, but some would argue those Christian churches are not really "Christian".
 

cuddlemonkey

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Sure, but some would argue those Christian churches are not really "Christian".

And those people would be engaging in a giant logical fallacy. It's the Christian Church no matter how much one denomination doesn't like it.
 

DaveXA

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And those people would be engaging in a giant logical fallacy. It's the Christian Church no matter how much one denomination doesn't like it.

It's not that they don't like it, they think theirs is the only legitimate "Church" and everyone else isn't. There are not a lot like that, but there are some for sure.
 

cuddlemonkey

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It's not that they don't like it, they think theirs is the only legitimate "Church" and everyone else isn't. There are not a lot like that, but there are some for sure.

Fair. Still a fallacious line of thought, though.
 

Heathen

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Intent vs possibility. Clearly I know they mean Christian. By "god/God" by itself doesn't have to mean that, even if it often does. But there also isn't a Christian Church. There are various types of Christian churches. And really, my entire opening point was a reference to the concept that the separation of church and state has not denied a 'religious dimension' in the political realm.

I guess this sort of leads into a discussion of "gray areas" within our law vs. intent/what should be. Ideals like "all men are created equal" portion of the Declaration of Independence have certainly failed to hold much of any authority in real life beyond bold-sounding verbiage.

My point is that in an America that honestly and consistently lives up to the very important ideal of separation of church and state, both for the protection of and from the religious and non-religious, we wouldn't have issues like religious figures adorning our currency or having a place within our courtrooms, the list goes on.

It can easily be seen as an "attack" from the vantage point of those who have grown accustomed to the culture of it or are of that religious persuasion, but I can confidently say it's within everyone's best interest that we fight to keep our government as secular and nonpartisan as possible -- and of course this must never mean anti-religious in ANY regard. It's really the same issue we have with money in politics. I would say it pretty objectively isn't what America is representative of, thus should not be representing us as a whole.
 

SystemShock

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So I'm ignorant or a liar?

Glad to see your vast intellect at work with such simple, binary choices.

Again, how is it possible that you don't know that "a nation, under God", "God bless America", or "in God we trust" painted on an Alabama patrol car, in the U.S., refers to any other god than the Christian god?

You telling me "god" means any god in the context of the OP, and in the context of the phrases being discussed, it is either ignorant or dishonest. What's the other option?

Clearly I know they mean Christian.
Then what exactly are you arguing?
 

SystemShock

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Imma stop you right there.

The Christian church is made up of all believers. Christian denominations are part of the Christian church.

Fair amount of scripture to support this.


And there are definitely churches out there that call themselves non-denominational, or just “Christian.”

I got in an argument about that over at SR, what is meant to be a "Christian". The best I got from the person I was arguing with was - condensed- "Christians do Christian-like things; if you don't do Christian-like things, then you are not a Christian". My conclusion was, there are no Christians :hihi:

My definition is much more simple and to the point: If you believe in Jesus, that he died for your sins and resurrected, then you are a Christian.
 

DaveXA

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I got in an argument about that over at SR, what is meant to be a "Christian". The best I got from the person I was arguing with was - condensed- "Christians do Christian-like things; if you don't do Christian-like things, then you are not a Christian". My conclusion was, there are no Christians :hihi:

My definition is much more simple and to the point: If you believe in Jesus, that he died for your sins and resurrected, then you are a Christian.

I can assure you (and I suspect you know this), from personal experience, more than a few self-identified "Christians" don't believe your second paragraph at all. I think that's a pretty good definition myself, but it's certainly not a universal belief among Christians.
 

SaulGoodmanEsq

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I want to tread carefully because I am not at all religious and think organized religion has done far more harm than good in this world. One thing that I'm always particularly galled by are these semi-journalists/talking heads on twitter and elsewhere who will mercilessly troll and criticize people and say some of (what I imagine to be) the most un-Christ-like things one could say.... but it's all right for them to do so because they have a tag like 'Imperfect Follower of Christ.' Never been a fan of that get-out-of-jail free card people play. Of course, this is usually limited to those who weaponize religion to further their political agendas.

Dungeons & Dragons rules should apply: your alignment is dictated by your actions. Are you Chaotic Good? Lawful Evil? True Neutral?!?!? The United States should be Lawful Neutral. Problem solved, no longer have to worry about the Establishment Clause.
 

DaveXA

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I want to tread carefully because I am not at all religious and think organized religion has done far more harm than gone in this world. One thing that I'm always particularly galled by are these semi-journalists/talking heads on twitter and elsewhere who will mercilessly troll and criticize people and say some of (what I imagine to be) most un-Christ-like things one could say.... but it's all right for them to do so because they have a tag like 'Imperfect Follower of Christ.' Never been a fan of that get-out-of-jail free card people play. Of course, this is usually limited to those who weaponize religion to further their political agendas.

Dungeons & Dragons rules should apply: your alignment is dictated by your actions. Are you Chaotic Good? Lawful Evil? True Neutral?!?!? The United States should be Lawful Neutral. Problem solved, no longer have to worry about the Establishment Clause.

Perfectly reasonable take. I'm a fairly religious guy, but I'd rather not muck up religion with politics and vice versa.
 

Taurus

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Again, how is it possible that you don't know that "a nation, under God", "God bless America", or "in God we trust" painted on an Alabama patrol car, in the U.S., refers to any other god than the Christian god?

You telling me "god" means any god in the context of the OP, and in the context of the phrases being discussed, it is either ignorant or dishonest. What's the other option?


Then what exactly are you arguing?

You'll note that "God" on these things is always capitalized. It's a proper name, referring to The God Of Abraham. That specific deity and no other.
 

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