The Impeachment Process Has Officially Begun (3 Viewers)

[Andrus]

By Laura Bassett

After months of internal arguing among Democrats over whether to impeach President Donald Trump, the dam is finally breaking in favor of trying to remove him from office. The Washington Post reported that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi would announce a formal impeachment inquiry on Tuesday, following a bombshell report that Trump illegally asked Ukraine’s government to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, one of his political opponents. (He essentially admitted to having done so over the weekend.)

“Now that we have the facts, we’re ready,” Pelosi said Tuesday morning at a forum hosted by The Atlantic. At 5 p.m. the same day, she was back with more. "The actions taken to date by the president have seriously violated the constitution, especially when the president says Article Two says I can do whatever I want," referring to the segment of the Constitution that defines the power of the executive branch of the government. Pelosi's message was that checks and balances of those branches are just as central to the Constitution. And one more thing: "Today, I am announcing the House of Representatives is moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry," she said at a conference broadcast on Twitter by the Huffington Post. ...

Read the Full Story - InStyle

 

[Lapaz]

for the sake of argument, let’s go with everything you say as truth. What is the impact? The investigation did Not so what it was intended to do. Much like the Steele dossier and now the impeachment.

When the impeachment fizzles, what’s next? Will you accept that trump is better at being a politician than the career politicians? He is beating them at their own game.

Sadly Hitler was better than the other politicians in his time. So was Castro. So was Chavez. Integrity and justice have often been overcome by charismatic leaders with cult-like support. Trump is charismatic and a devilishly good politician. I can only hope that all of the mounting evidence will eventually open people’s eyes to his rotten motives. He is doing the opposite of making America great, and we need some of his supporters to realize that.

 

[MT15]

Would people please quit saying that the Mueller investigation was done by and/or for the Democrats? Whenever you say that you instantly lose credibility. It was a Republican investigation, start to finish. Democrats had no say in it, and no leverage in it.

my own opinion is that Rod Rosenstein carefully crafted the scope of the investigation to make sure Mueller couldn’t prove a criminal conspiracy. And voila, it did exactly what he hoped it would do.

 

[FullMonte]

2. The problem that it appears the prosecution in the impeachment case is okay with the investigation into Ukraine's potential meddling in the 2016 election. That investigation (Ukraine 2016) is an Executive action and falls under the general idea of "corruption," thereby negating the argument that the Administration had shown no concern with corruption in Ukraine.

The problem I have with that is that you are saying (if I understand you correctly) that this one time of him asking Ukraine to investigate the potential meddling in the 2016 election is proof that the administration was concerned about corruption in Ukraine.

But, you can't look at that one ask in a vaccuum. Look at the surrounding events:

--May 2019: DOD completes investigation and certifies that Ukraine has taken the required steps to address corruption.
--May 2019-July 2019: White House, on at least 50 different occasions, signs off on releasing the aid to Ukraine
--July 2019: Zelensky, a man with no political experience, gets elected
--July 2019: Trump suddenly determines that the aid needs to be withheld because of the potential with corruption in the Ukraine, and asks Zelensky to investigate the potential 2016 meddling.
--Aug 2019: Whistleblower complaint is made, and determined to be credible and urgent by IG
--Sep 2019: Trump is briefed on whistleblower complaint
--Sep 2019: Congress begins looking into complaint
--Sep 2019: Trump releases aid, even though no investigation into meddling was done

So, if Trump was legitimately concerned with the 2016 meddling as a corruption issue, why was it suddenly an issue after Zelensky was elected? Why did the Trump administration tell no one that this corruption was a problem? Why was the aid released in September if the investigation was not done? None of these items make sense if it was all about corruption. However, that entire timeline makes perfect sense if it wasn't about corruption, but it was about Trump getting political aid, and getting caught.

 

[SaintForLife]

my own opinion is that Rod Rosenstein carefully crafted the scope of the investigation to make sure Mueller couldn’t prove a criminal conspiracy. And voila, it did exactly what he hoped it would do.

That seems like the latest conspiracy theory going around on the left to try to explain why Mueller didn't produce the results they wanted. What makes you think that's what happened?

 

[insidejob]

That seems like the latest conspiracy theory going around on the left to try to explain why Mueller didn't produce the results they wanted. What makes you think that's what happened?

Because Mueller himself said that the scope of his investigation limited him from bringing any formal charges or conclusions that could lead to charges against a sitting president.

 

[brandon]

There’s a lot of talking here, but here’s the point. Again.

If there is evidence that Biden committed a crime, investigate it and prosecute him. If it’s proven he committed a crime, put him in jail.

Trump supporters, including @Lazybones,@SaintForLife, and @Beach Friends, will not hold Trump to the same standard.

Why?

 

[Beach Friends]

There’s a lot of talking here, but here’s the point. Again.

If there is evidence that Biden committed a crime, investigate it and prosecute him. If it’s proven he committed a crime, put him in jail.

Trump supporters, including @Lazybones,@SaintForLife, and @Beach Friends, will not hold Trump to the same standard.

Why?

He's being investigated.

The Democrats have been looking for a reason to impeach since before he took office. I take that into consideration, so it's going to take a lot to impress me. A Schiff ran investigation that uncovers presumotions, hearsay and feelings is not going to cut it.

Let's not pretend that we don't know what this is really about. The Democrats have no confidence they can beat Trump in 2020.

Knowing that this is all political, I look at the alternative and I see the super woke and very weak Democratic field.

No thanks.

Now you can argue against that all you want, but you asked me for my opinion. It's not going to change based on anything you have to say.

 

[brandon]

He's being investigated.

Which, despite all evidence that it should continue, you would be just fine with shutting down right now.

Now you can argue against that all you want, but you asked me for my opinion. It's not going to change based on anything you have to say.

Which is my point. We’re not having honest discussion here when there is literally nothing that could sway Trump supporters into believing that Trump should be impeached.

So why are you even here if you freely admit your mind is completely closed to alternative ideas?

 

[Beach Friends]

Which, despite all evidence that it should continue, you would be just fine with shutting down right now.

Which is my point. We’re not having honest discussion here when there is literally nothing that could sway Trump supporters into believing that Trump should be impeached.

So why are you even here if you freely admit your mind is completely closed to alternative ideas?

The bigger question is, if you don't think that I am open minded enough for this conversation why do you keep asking me to join you in the discussion?

If you don't like my position, that's fine because you can have an opinion of your very own. I am not going to try to persuade you either because I know your mind is made up as well.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I want to give you benefit of the doubt, because I appreciate you reaching out the other day. By I have explained my thoughts throughout this thread. I’m pretty sure I have expressed my view points very clearly.

The reason I asked you to link me to the post is because I want to make sure I am reading the correct post. If I go back through 100+ pages of this thread to find your answer, it's easy for me to completely miss it because there is so much information to take in.

If you post a link to the exact post in which you shared these thoughts, I can read it and ensure that we are on the same page in order to have a genuine discussion and not just end up two people arguing past one another.

 

[brandon]

The bigger question is, if you don't think that I am open minded enough for this conversation why do you keep asking me to join you in the discussion?

Because this is a discussion forum.

f you don't like my position, that's fine because you can have an opinion of your very own. I am not going to try to persuade you either because I know your mind is made up as well.

This is demonstrably false. Again, I have stated multiple times that while I support Biden, if he is guilty of a crime, I want him in prison. My mind is not made up. Yours is, however, which is—again—my point.

Here’s an example of where you’re wrong. Most of the libs over at the PDB were plenty quick to turn on Smollet and the WWL radio host. When presented with overwhelming evidence that contradicted their first impressions, they reevaluated their positions and came to a new conclusion (I say they, because I reserved judgment entirely on both of those threads, suspecting that there would be more to the story, not to sound self-important).

I am absolutely willing to reevaluate my position in the face of new evidence. If there is evidence showing that Trump has committed no wrongdoing, or that this was entirely a democratic fabrication, then just like the Smollet case, I expect a swift liberal backlash against the democrats

You are currently faced with overwhelming evidence that your position is flawed. You can’t claim ignorance of the facts like so many Trump supporters. You’re here. You’re engaged. You’ve read the evidence against your position.

Either you are too proud to re-evaluate your position, or you are too far gone in the cult of personality to want to.

It’s either sad or scary.

 

[Beach Friends]

Because this is a discussion forum.


This is demonstrably false. Again, I have stated multiple times that while I support Biden, if he is guilty of a crime, I want him in prison. My mind is not made up. Yours is, however, which is—again—my point.

Here’s an example of where you’re wrong. Most of the libs over at the PDB were plenty quick to turn on Smollet and the WWL radio host. When presented with overwhelming evidence that contradicted their first impressions, they reevaluated their positions and came to a new conclusion (I say they, because I reserved judgment entirely on both of those threads, suspecting that there would be more to the story, not to sound self-important).

I am absolutely willing to reevaluate my position in the face of new evidence. If there is evidence showing that Trump has committed no wrongdoing, or that this was entirely a democratic fabrication, then just like the Smollet case, I expect a swift liberal backlash against the democrats

You are currently faced with overwhelming evidence that your position is flawed. You can’t claim ignorance of the facts like so many Trump supporters. You’re here. You’re engaged. You’ve read the evidence against your position.

Either you are too proud to re-evaluate your position, or you are too far gone in the cult of personality to want to.

It’s either sad or scary.

Well, hang in there Brandon. Just don't get too invested - looks like the political will to remove Trump simply is not there.

Looks like the Democrats are kind of locked in to sending this to the Senate, and we all know that's going nowhere. It seems like, from the polls I have seen, enthusiasm for impeachment among independents is actually decreasing the longer Democrats put on their case.

And support for Trump remains over 90% among Republicans.

It's going to come down to an election and I just don't see how any Democratic candidate is going to satisfy the more progressive wing of the party and hold the center. As we all know, the far left does not accept being told "no" very well.

Maybe after 2020 the Democratic party will realize that they can't afford to dance to the tune the far left is playing and there will be a correction.

 

[brandon]

Well, hang in there Brandon. Just don't get too invested - looks like the political will to remove Trump simply is not there.

Looks like the Democrats are kind of locked in to sending this to the Senate, and we all know that's going nowhere. It seems like, from the polls I have seen, enthusiasm for impeachment among independents is actually decreasing the longer Democrats put on their case.

And support for Trump remains over 90% among Republicans.

This has been addressed multiple times in the thread, as well.

Is it your assertion that guilt or innocence of a crime should be based on poll numbers?

 

[Beach Friends]

This has been addressed multiple times in the thread, as well.

Is it your assertion that guilt or innocence of a crime should be based on poll numbers?

Is it your belief that there is a criminal proceeding occurring in the House of Representatives?

If you believe that the politicians are not going to pay attention to public sentiment in determing whether to vote to remove the President of the United States then you are being incredibly naive.

 

[brandon]

Is it your belief that there is a criminal proceeding occurring in the House of Representatives?

If you believe that the politicians are not going to pay attention to public sentiment in determing whether to vote to remove the President of the United States then you are being incredibly naive.

No. It is not a criminal proceeding. Yes, the senate will vote based on the sentiment of their constituency.

I didn’t ask you what would happen. I asked you if you believed that guilt or innocence should be tied to poll numbers.

I’ll go ahead and assume your answer is “no.”

So, it follows that what’s right has little to do with what will happen, largely because people like you will ignore what you know is right.

My question is “why?”

Why do you devote yourself to Trump above what you know is the right thing to do? He committed an offense, bribery, that is specifically listed in the constitution as an impeachable offense. But you choose to ignore that, not for country, but for a man. And not even a particularly good man. Why?

 

[V Chip]

The idea that Trump and his supporters are interested in investigating corruption based on Hunter Biden holding a highly-paid position at Burisma is laughable, as if it were actually true, there would be calls for other nepotism-related hirings and board seats of other politicians of all parties, including Trump and his family themselves. There would be calls for investigating government payouts to companies connected to politicians, including Trump himself for the myriad uses of Trump properties for government-paid meetings/lodgings/junkets. The idea that this is a general "anti-corruption" thing is a ruse to anyone who can view things without their ideological lenses on.

 

[Beach Friends]

No. It is not a criminal proceeding. Yes, the senate will vote based on the sentiment of their constituency.

I didn’t ask you what would happen. I asked you if you believed that guilt or innocence should be tied to poll numbers.

I’ll go ahead and assume your answer is “no.”

So, it follows that what’s right has little to do with what will happen, largely because people like you will ignore what you know is right.

My question is “why?”

Why do you devote yourself to Trump above what you know is the right thing to do? He committed an offense, bribery, that is specifically listed in the constitution as an impeachable offense. But you choose to ignore that, not for country, but for a man. And not even a particularly good man. Why?

Why do you keep reframing the same questions and expecting different results?

During the Democratic debates have you ever stopped to wonder those candidates would appeal to conservatives or independents? It's worth thinking about.

 

[brandon]

During the Democratic debates have you ever stopped to wonder those candidates would appeal to conservatives or independents? It's worth thinking about.

Irrelevant to whether or not Trump should be impeached.

Why do you keep reframing the same questions and expecting different results?

Because there's around 30% of the electorate for whom there is absolutely nothing the president could do that would cause their support for him to waver.

I am trying to see if the Trump supporters we have on this forum are in that number. If so, I can safely put them on ignore knowing that there's no point in engaging with them.

But if there's a chance they are willing to entertain other opinions, I'll keep fighting the good fight.