Student Loan Forgiveness (MERGED) (1 Viewer)

[el caliente]

Rumors floating around is that today President Biden will be canceling a portion of student loans. That’s fine and all, but what’s your take on it? If it truly is only $10k in forgiveness, is that enough to make much of an impact? Is student loan forgiveness just tax payer funded student loan bribery?

Should be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[MT15]

Lol

 

[el caliente]

Did you even read my post? The metric that will be used is "average household debt," not "average household debt among debtors."

I am trying to find what metric is being used, do you have a link?

Meanwhile, while searching for the metric used I found sites reporting various amounts of outstanding student loan debt.

WH.Gov says the average undergrad has debt of $25k

FACT SHEET: President Biden Announces Student Loan Relief for Borrowers Who Need It Most - The White House

A three-part plan delivers on President Biden’s promise to cancel $10,000 of student debt for low- to middle-income borrowers President Biden believes

www.whitehouse.gov

NerdWallet says that the averages home carries $59k

NerdWallet’s 2021 American Household Credit Card Debt Study

The second year of the pandemic has made it clear that financial recovery will be slow for many. The cost of living keeps rising while average household income has fallen.

www.nerdwallet.com

Experian says that the average student loan debt among consumers in the U.S. totaled $39,381

How Student Loan Debt Has Increased Over Time - Experian

To illustrate how student loan debt has grown compared to other forms of debt, Experian analyzed data dating back to 2009.

www.experian.com

Forbes suspects that Federal borrowers average $37,667 in loans.

The average student loan debt across the US: Here are the top 10 states where borrowers will benefit most from Biden’s loan forgiveness – Fortune

Federal borrowers average $37,667 in student loan debt, though that figure varies by location, degree type, and other factors. Here is a breakdown by state.

fortune.com

It seems that no matter how you slice the numbers, a great number of folks will still be drowning in debt once this bailout hits.

 

[el caliente]

Talk about understanding the assignment.

 

[MT15]

This is a great thread. It really illuminates how the problem has gotten away from us:

First post: (I don’t agree that older people just don’t understand the issue, I think most do):

 

[MT15]

Sorry, one more, because this is life-changing for so many people.

 

[MT15]

I didn’t know this:

 

[el caliente]

It was only a matter of time.

Democrats in tough races distance themselves from Biden’s student loans decision

Republicans are betting there will be a backlash against debt forgiveness in states or districts where college attainment is low.

www.nbcnews.com

Folks on both sides of the aisle are ticked off, and this might have caused more disappointment among Democrats than planned.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/25/us/politics/student-loan-forgiveness-democrats-gop.html

 

[brandon]

I am trying to find what metric is being used, do you have a link?

The metric that shows that when you forgive debt, it makes debt go down. You know, the one that isn’t stupid.

WH.Gov says the average undergrad has debt of $25k

And you think cutting that almost in half isn’t significant?

Do you understand the phrase “the perfect is the enemy of the good?”

It seems that no matter how you slice the numbers, a great number of folks will still be drowning in debt once this bailout hits

So are you advocating for forgiving everyone’s debts entirely, or for throwing up your hands and saying “oh, woe is me!” because I can’t figure out what your point is. No one said this was going to clear every household’s debt in America. I did say it would reduce the average amount of household debt in America, and that’s completely accurate.

 

[el caliente]

The metric that shows that when you forgive debt, it makes debt go down. You know, the one that isn’t stupid.

And you think cutting that almost in half isn’t significant?

Do you understand the phrase “the perfect is the enemy of the good?”



So are you advocating for forgiving everyone’s debts entirely, or for throwing up your hands and saying “oh, woe is me!” because I can’t figure out what your point is. No one said this was going to clear every household’s debt in America. I did say it would reduce the average amount of household debt in America, and that’s completely accurate.

Why Brandon, Whatever do you mean? Maybe math’s just not your game, I know let's have a spelling contest?

I just showed you that if you forgive debt, it doesn’t necessarily take the debt down. Should I use an example with 3 people (rather than 2)?

I believe I have said repeatedly that I am fine with any bailout given. I just don’t think it’s the life support (for the majority of debt holders) that some on this thread are making it out to be. For that to be the case the amount would have to be higher.

 

[el caliente]

Something else that is lost in all of this is the voter that lives in NYC, LA, SF, etc., where the cost of living is through the nose. With the cost of living being so high, the $125k cutoff is going to do nothing for the folks making $125,001 and are still the working poor.

That’s why I hate when there is a wealth cutoff. $125k in Houston or Denham Spring is great money. $125k in SF, LA, or NYC, and you are sharing an apartment with 10 other people, and converting the kitchen to a bedroom.

Like a corporation worth its salt (that bases pay range on cost of living for the work location), the government should look at changing the cutoff based on where the individual lives.

 

[brandon]

Why Brandon, Whatever do you mean? Maybe math’s just not your game I know let's have a spelling contest?

Sounds fun. Name the time and place.

I just showed you that if you forgive debt, it doesn’t necessarily take the debt down.

No you didn’t. You showed that if you clear someone’s debt and clear them from the debtor rolls, then average debt per debtor can go up. That’s not in dispute.

What’s in dispute is you claiming that that particular metric is the appropriate one to measure whether forgiving loans reduces debt. Common sense dictates that it’s the wrong metric to use, but it sure helps sell a political taking point, which you’ve very obviously fallen for. The appropriate metric to use to measure the effectiveness of this program is average household debt, before and after the program’s implementation.

You’re out here measuring the volume of a container of water by how tall it is without accounting for length and width. It’s a first-grade level fallacy.

You can throw out all the ad hominems you want, but you just look sad.

 

[DaveXA]

Something else that is lost in all of this is the voter that lives in NYC, LA, SF, etc., where the cost of living is through the nose. With the cost of living being so high, the $125k cutoff is going to do nothing for the folks making $125,001 and are still the working poor.

That’s why I hate when there is a wealth cutoff. $125k in Houston or Denham Spring is great money. $125k in SF, LA, or NYC, and you are sharing an apartment with 10 other people, and converting the kitchen to a bedroom.

Like a corporation worth its salt (that bases pay range on cost of living for the work location), the government should look at changing the cutoff based on where the individual lives.

This I agree with. The federal government already does adjust salaries and pay based on where you live for federal employees. I don't see why they can't do it for loan assistance like this.

 

[brandon]

Something else that is lost in all of this is the voter that lives in NYC, LA, SF, etc., where the cost of living is through the nose. With the cost of living being so high, the $125k cutoff is going to do nothing for the folks making $125,001 and are still the working poor.

This is a good point.

See, you can make good arguments against the program without resorting to stupid ones.

 

[el caliente]

Sounds fun. Name the time and place.


No you didn’t. You showed that if you clear someone’s debt, then average debt per debtor goes up. That’s not in dispute.

What’s in dispute is you claiming that that particular metric is the appropriate one to measure whether forgiving loan reduces debt. Common sense dictates that it’s the wrong metric to use, but it sure helps sell a political taking point, which you’ve very obviously fallen for. The appropriate metric to use to measure the effectiveness of this program is average household debt, before and after the program’s implementation.

You’re out here measuring the volume of a container of water by how tall it is without accounting for depth and width. It’s a first-grade level fallacy.

You can throw out all the ad hominems you want, but you just look sad.

Time and place? The Super Dome, September 11th, 11am, at the 2 yard line. All proceeds will go to student loan forgiveness.

I don’t know what political talking point you think I am parroting with my example. It’s math hermano, it’s not political.

Why am I counting people without student loan debt when I am counting the average student loan debt carried by individuals? Am I including the coaching staff and trainers when I am counting how many Saints are going to dress on Gameday?

Have your people call my people, we can set up the spelling contest. We can even title the contest “Brandon and El Caliente spelling contest for the cure.”

 

[el caliente]

This is a good point.

See, you can make good arguments against the program without resorting to stupid ones.

I don’t know why you are calling my prior argument stupid, but I’m glad to see that you are looking past politics to see that this program isn’t all sunshine and daisy’s.

 

[brandon]

Why am I counting people without student loan debt when I am counting the average student loan debt carried by individuals?

Because what you are measuring is the effectiveness of a loan forgiveness plan, which brings many people to $0 household debt. Therefore, those people are relevant as to whether or not the plan is effective.

 

[el caliente]

Because what you are measuring is the effectiveness of a loan forgiveness plan, which brings many people to $0 household debt. Therefore, those people are relevant as to whether or not the plan is effective.

I see what you are saying, we are clearly looking at this from different mathematical angles.

 

[MT15]