States may move to keep Trump off the ballot based on 14th Amendment disqualification (2 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

Section 3 of the 14th Amendment:

There is a growing movement in some states to conclude that Trump is already disqualified under the 14th Amendment and they may remove him from the ballot. This would set-up legal challenges from Trump that could end up at the SCOTUS.

The 14A disqualification doesn’t have any procedural requirements, it simply says that a person that does those things can’t serve in those offices. It a state says it applies to Trump, it would then be on Trump to show that it didn’t (either because what he didn’t doesn’t amount to the prohibited conduct, or that president isn’t an “officer” as intended by the amendment).

States are in charge of the ballots and can make eligibility determinations that are subject to appeal - there is actually a fairly interesting body of cases over the years with ballot challenges in federal court.


More on the legal argument in favor of this:

The Sweep and Force of Section Three

Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids holding office by former office holders who then participate in insurrection or rebellion. Because of a range

papers.ssrn.com

The Constitution Prohibits Trump From Ever Being President Again

The only question is whether American citizens today can uphold that commitment.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[billm]

Proving beyond a doubt that lawless democrat scum are terrified of Trump.

 

[brandon]

Do tell how an evidentiary hearing and a unilateral decision by a secretary of state is due process.

The Supreme Court has already ruled in 2010 that the president isn't considered an officer in regards to the 14th ammendment. So you don't believe in the Constitution and the Supreme Court apparently.

She didn't want to take this up?

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation: – “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

An officer executes an office. The president is an officer and will be ruled as such.

office​

[ aw-fis, of-is ]SHOW IPA

See synonyms for: office/offices on Thesaurus.com

---

noun

1. a room, set of rooms, or building where the business of a commercial or industrial organization or of a professional person is conducted:the main office of an insurance company; a doctor's office. Is the Constitution telling him to carry out the death penalty on the Oval Office? Then this definition is not the definition of "office" being used.
2. a room assigned to a specific person or a group of persons in a commercial or industrial organization:Her office is next to mine. Same.
3. a business or professional organization:He went to work in an architect's office. Same
4. the staff or designated part of a staff at a commercial or industrial organization:The whole office was at his wedding. Unless the Constitution is telling him to execute all the people working at the White House, this is not the definition being used, either.
5. a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like:She was elected twice to the office of president. Oh, how convenient. Dictionary.com actually used our example in the definition.
6. ...Some additional definitions that also don't apply
   
   
   
   
   Now here are definitions of "officer":
   

   officer​

   [ aw-fuh-ser, of-uh- ]SHOW IPA
   
   
   
   
   See synonyms for: officer/officers on Thesaurus.com
   

   ---

   noun
   1. a person who holds a position of rank or authority in the army, navy, air force, or any similar organization, especially one who holds a commission. Perhaps, but maybe not a perfect analogue.
   2. a member of a police department or a constable. Does not apply.
   3. a person licensed to take full or partial responsibility for the operation of a merchant ship or other large civilian ship; a master or mate. Nope.
   4. a person appointed or elected to some position of responsibility or authority in the government, a corporation, a society, etc. Oh, here we go. Yea, a person elected to some position of responsibility or authority in the government. Wonder if President applies there?
   5. (in some honorary orders) a member of any rank except the lowest.
   6. Obsolete. an agent.

 

[brandon]

We've been over this a thousand times.

Just because your people suck at planning/executing an insurrection doesn't mean it wasn't an insurrection.

It just means you're bad at it.

 

[SaintForLife]

An officer executes an office. The president is an officer and will be ruled as such.

office​

[ aw-fis, of-is ]SHOW IPA

See synonyms for: office/offices on Thesaurus.com

---

noun

1. a room, set of rooms, or building where the business of a commercial or industrial organization or of a professional person is conducted:the main office of an insurance company; a doctor's office. Is the Constitution telling him to carry out the death penalty on the Oval Office? Then this definition is not the definition of "office" being used.
2. a room assigned to a specific person or a group of persons in a commercial or industrial organization:Her office is next to mine. Same.
3. a business or professional organization:He went to work in an architect's office. Same
4. the staff or designated part of a staff at a commercial or industrial organization:The whole office was at his wedding. Unless the Constitution is telling him to execute all the people working at the White House, this is not the definition being used, either.
5. a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like:She was elected twice to the office of president. Oh, how convenient. Dictionary.com actually used our example in the definition.
6. ...Some additional definitions that also don't apply
   
   
   
   
   Now here are definitions of "officer":
   

   officer​

   [ aw-fuh-ser, of-uh- ]SHOW IPA
   
   
   
   
   See synonyms for: officer/officers on Thesaurus.com
   

   ---

   noun
   1. a person who holds a position of rank or authority in the army, navy, air force, or any similar organization, especially one who holds a commission. Perhaps, but maybe not a perfect analogue.
   2. a member of a police department or a constable. Does not apply.
   3. a person licensed to take full or partial responsibility for the operation of a merchant ship or other large civilian ship; a master or mate. Nope.
   4. a person appointed or elected to some position of responsibility or authority in the government, a corporation, a society, etc. Oh, here we go. Yea, a person elected to some position of responsibility or authority in the government. Wonder if President applies there?
   5. (in some honorary orders) a member of any rank except the lowest.
   6. Obsolete. an agent.

Swing and a miss. The Supreme Court ruled in 2010 that the President isn't an officer.

 

[MT15]

It was an auto-coup attempt. If Pence had played along, which Trump was counting on, the election would’ve either been reversed by him throwing out the valid electors and accepting the fake ones, or thrown to the House by Pence simply throwing out the states with two sets of electors. Which would have elected Trump.

His back up plan was on Ted Cruz - who eagerly played along and argued for a 10-day “pause” before counting the electoral college votes, to give them time to get state legislatures to “rescind” their true electors (which really isn’t a thing). The mob was another delay tactic - stop the count, while Trump and his sycophants worked the phones to get what they wanted.

So all this talk that an insurrection has to involve the military is just nonsense. Trump wanted to be able to count on the military, but he had been shut down by Milley on that front, so he knew he couldn’t count on them. Powell and Flynn wanted him to invoke the Insurrection Act, seize the voting machines and re-run the election under military control, and he would have done it in a minute if he thought he would get away with it.

Swing and a miss. The Supreme Court ruled in 2010 that the President isn't an officer.

You keep clinging to that. It’s not a bad idea to prepare yourself though. Most legal scholars don’t think that’s a strong point. It’s pretty weak, actually.

 

[Incumbent]

We've been over this a thousand times.

Just because your people suck at planning/executing an insurrection doesn't mean it wasn't an insurrection.

It just means you're bad at it.

That and Jilani is ignoring the fact that disrupting proceedings and stopping certification, to try and keep Trump in office, was the how of gaining control. If Pence got in the car, everything from that point would have been much different.

 

[MT15]

That and Jilani is ignoring the fact that disrupting proceedings and stopping certification, to try and keep Trump in office, was the how of gaining control. If Pence got in the car, everything from that point would have been much different.

It’s really frightening to think how close that hare-brained scheme came to working.

 

[V Chip]

I know the case in 2010 wasn't about the 14th ammendment, but his ruling applies to the 14th ammendment because they defined that the president isn't considered an officer in regards to the constitution.

Your general definition of officer has zero relation to what an officer is in the constitution.

It's amazing that you're claiming that the 14th Amendment applies to every single elected position in the federal government EXCEPT President.

I mean, seriously that's what you're saying. That when the 14th was passed it was intended to protect the US from someone running for election who had previously been involved in an insurrection or rebellion for every position except the highest one in the whole country.

That's just nucking futs.

 

[efil4]

It's amazing that you're claiming that the 14th Amendment applies to every single elected position in the federal government EXCEPT President.

I mean, seriously that's what you're saying. That when the 14th was passed it was intended to protect the US from someone running for election who had previously been involved in an insurrection or rebellion for every position except the highest one in the whole country.

That's just nucking futs.

It's like arguing " right to bear arms..." means actually having bear arms. That's what is happening here. They have one definition only when it fits narrative and multiple when it doesn't.

Doesn't surprise me. Trump talks in exact same manner.

 

[SaintForLife]

It's amazing that you're claiming that the 14th Amendment applies to every single elected position in the federal government EXCEPT President.

I mean, seriously that's what you're saying. That when the 14th was passed it was intended to protect the US from someone running for election who had previously been involved in an insurrection or rebellion for every position except the highest one in the whole country.

That's just nucking futs.

It's not like I've come up with my opinion out of thin air. This was posted earlier in the thread. I'm sure you've seen it.

In Free Enterprise Fund vs Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight board, Roberts stated "the people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States., rather officers are appointed by the president pursuant to Article II, section 2." Also, the Constitution's impeachment clause said that the president, vice president, "and all officers of the United States," not "all OTHER officers of the United States."

And it wasn't an insurrection. It was a riot. If it was an insurrection Jack Smith would have charged Trump with inciting or participating in an insurrection.

You seem to be upset with the Constitution and the Supreme Court.

 

[brandon]

It's not like I've come up with my opinion out of thin air. This was posted earlier in the thread. I'm sure you've seen it.

In Free Enterprise Fund vs Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight board, Roberts stated "the people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States., rather officers are appointed by the president pursuant to Article II, section 2." Also, the Constitution's impeachment clause said that the president, vice president, "and all officers of the United States," not "all OTHER officers of the United States."

And it wasn't an insurrection. It was a riot. If it was an insurrection Jack Smith would have charged Trump with inciting or participating in an insurrection.

You seem to be upset with the Constitution and the Supreme Court.

You're sure confident for a guy whose team has been going to jail left and right over weak legal arguments.

 

[MT15]

It's not like I've come up with my opinion out of thin air. This was posted earlier in the thread. I'm sure you've seen it.

In Free Enterprise Fund vs Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight board, Roberts stated "the people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States., rather officers are appointed by the president pursuant to Article II, section 2." Also, the Constitution's impeachment clause said that the president, vice president, "and all officers of the United States," not "all OTHER officers of the United States."

And it wasn't an insurrection. It was a riot. If it was an insurrection Jack Smith would have charged Trump with inciting or participating in an insurrection.

You seem to be upset with the Constitution and the Supreme Court.

You seem to be in some sort of denial. What was Trump trying to accomplish with the fake electors? What was the point of having a “Stop the Steal” rally on that exact day, at that exact time? Why did he encourage the masses to “march to the Capitol”. Why did he work the phones during the invasion of the Capitol, calling Senators to urge them NOT to finish the count of electoral votes? Why did Mark Meadows tell people Trump didn’t want to stop his people from breaking into and ransacking the Capitol? His exact words were “He doesn’t think they’re doing anything wrong”.

So unless someone is charged with a specific crime, they didn’t commit that crime? That is a supremely immoral take. If you kill someone, it doesn’t count unless you are charged with murder? That is simply depraved. Completely without morals.

 

[zztop]

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Yes, but TRUMP! is their only response.

I can only assume your computer screen is malfunctioning, considering there are multiple posts in this thread- nay, on this very page- that offer rational, well-reasoned opinions and responses.

 

[V Chip]

It's not like I've come up with my opinion out of thin air. This was posted earlier in the thread. I'm sure you've seen it.

In Free Enterprise Fund vs Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight board, Roberts stated "the people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States., rather officers are appointed by the president pursuant to Article II, section 2." Also, the Constitution's impeachment clause said that the president, vice president, "and all officers of the United States," not "all OTHER officers of the United States."

And it wasn't an insurrection. It was a riot. If it was an insurrection Jack Smith would have charged Trump with inciting or participating in an insurrection.

You seem to be upset with the Constitution and the Supreme Court.

I'm not saying you came up with it out of thin air.

I'm asking if that is your belief. Like you think that it makes any sort of logical sense that people would create an Amendment clause that specifically deals with making people who have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the Constitution (or given aid to enemies of the US basically) ineligible for any federal or state office, but they would specifically NOT want that to apply to only one office, meaning the office of the President, being the highest office in the whole country.

Like YOU, SFL, personally think that and that it makes rational sense.

Because it absolutely does not.

Yes, it was an insurrection. It was a violent rebellion against a government, specifically against the peaceful transfer of power and an attempt to prevent the certification of election results and replace electors with frauds in order to keep Trump in power. That was the whole point of the riot. People involved and convicted have ADMITTED to seditious conspiracy -- that is what an insurrection IS.

And that SC case you keep posting ad nauseum -- you do know that says "officer" and not "office" correct? There's an extra letter there that you seem to be missing.

And that the SC case has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the 14th Amendment right?

 

[Taurus]

I can only assume your computer screen is malfunctioning, considering there are multiple posts in this thread- nay, on this very page- that offer rational, well-reasoned opinions and responses.

Remember how Rethugs constantly bleat about Trump Derangement Syndrome? Remember also how they reflexively project nearly everything they're guilty of onto their opponents?

Yeah, TDS is real, the sufferers continue to support the cowardly twinkie despite all reason. Truly deranged.

 

[MT15]

He goes wrong in the very second tweet. He tries to use a definition that simply isn’t true. He assumes that the only kind of coup is a military coup. That is false.

Here is the definition of an auto or self-coup (bolding is mine):

“Under Cline Center definitions, an auto-coup occurs when “the incumbent chief executive uses illegal or extra-legal means to assume extraordinary powers, seize the power of other branches of government, or render powerless other components of the government such as the legislature or judiciary.”

Auto-coups typically involve an executive who is in power but is trying to use irregular means to sustain that power beyond what is legally mandated.”

News Bureau | ILLINOIS

The Cline Center for Advanced Social Research’s Coup d’État Project initially categorized the storming of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, as an “attempted dissident coup.” But that classification has evolved to include the additional classification “attempted auto-coup d’état,” said Scott...

news.illinois.edu