Socialsim is only possible through Coercion, by Paul (old title: Equity v. Equality and Government Policy) (2 Viewers)

[coldseat]

I thought of posting this in the All Things Racist thread, but ultimately felt it would be better in it's own thread. I ran across this opinion by George Will warning about the creeping danger of equity based government policy pushed by progressives. His overriding point is:

Harlan’s Plessy dissent insisted that the Constitution’s post-Civil War amendments forbid “the imposition of any burdens or disabilities that constitute badges of slavery or servitude.” Today, 125 years later, multiplying departures from colorblind government — myriad race-based preferential treatments — are becoming a different but also invidious badge: of permanent incapacity.

Laws or administrative policies adopted for (in the words of today’s chief justice, John G. Roberts Jr.) the “sordid” practice of “divvying us up by race” can be deleterious for the intended beneficiaries. Benefits allocated to a specially protected racial cohort might come to be seen as a badge of inferiority. Such preferences might seem to insinuate that recipients of government-dispensed special privileges cannot thrive without them.

Government spoils systems, racial or otherwise, wound their beneficiaries. Getting used to special dependency, and soon experiencing it as an entitlement, the beneficiaries might come to feel entitled to preferences forever. Hence, progressives working to supplant equality of opportunity with “equity” — race-conscious government allocation of social rewards — are profoundly insulting, and potentially injurious, to African Americans and other favored groups.

Canellos’s stirring biography resoundingly establishes that Harlan was a hero. So, what are those who today are trying to erase the great principle of colorblindness that Harlan championed?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/30/pursuing-equity-over-equality-reveals-nations-moral-regression/

This is a very convincing argument for equality based government policy, one that I used to believe in, but it ignores a lot of realities and history. First, it ignores that centuries of purposeful inequality in government policy have directly led to the economic, social, and community destabilization and destitution that prevented black families for accumulating wealth. And how those purposeful actions have lead to the astonishing difference in the wealth gap between black and white families that has only worsened over time. While conservative will acknowledge this wealth gap and pay lip service to closing it, they fail to admit/consider how equality based public policy (something we've been trying to implement in race neutral government policy since the 60's) has failed to correct the issue and in many case has served to exacerbate it. While race neutral, equality based government policy may be easier for white voters to accept, it fails to address the historic inequalities entrenched by centuries of purposeful government based inequality. John Oliver make this point perfectly in this piece on housing discrimination. It's a 30 minute commitment, but well worth it because he provides a lot of prospective.



My overall point here is that if we you actually care or want to correct the effects centuries has purposeful government inequality, you actually have to target the aid and remediation to the people who where targeted in the inequality (i.e. equity based government policy). Anything else is paying lip service to the problem and asking black people in particular to "just get over it".

 

[samiam5211]

The Most Successful Ethnic Group in the U.S. May Surprise You | OZY

Nigerian-Americans are on a path to become one of the most successful immigrant groups in American history.

www.ozy.com

You didn’t answer my question.

Nigerian Americans are different culturally from the average Nigerian only in that they come from wealthy families.

Which Nigerian cultural traditions were you (not someone else) referring to?

 

[Paul]

You didn’t answer my question.

Nigerian Americans are different culturally from the average Nigerian only in that they come from wealthy families.

Which Nigerian cultural traditions were you (not someone else) referring to?

I am flabbergasted this is seen as a surprise. They are at academics.

 

[Paul]

No man it isn’t. I figured you would just claim that so I edited my message to include a link

Here is a snippet from it:





Yeah Google is your friend. It helps if you don’t filter it for your predetermined conclusion though.

That is exactly what i told you. Genetics plus the environment.

You are also forgetting memes which often spread more efficiently than genes.

Google memes and Dawkins

 

[Paul]

No.

But why the extreme? That’s like saying “will medicine end diseases?” No but it sure as fork helps.

What would happen if all the rich people leave?

 

[samiam5211]

I am flabbergasted this is seen as a surprise. They are at academics.

Nigerian immigrants and Nigerians are different sets of people separated almost entirely by familial wealth.

Why can’t you describe in your own words what cultural traits you claimed made Nigerians so successful?

 

[V Chip]

That is exactly what i told you. Genetics plus the environment.

You implied it’s completely or mostly genetics shaped by the environment. It’s not — it’s mostly environment. Shyness is not genetic, it is mostly environmental.

You are also forgetting memes which often spread more efficiently than genes.

Google memes and Dawkins

What do memes have to do with you calling shyness genetic?

(You need to stop assuming people haven’t heard of the same things you have. “Google is your friend” or “look up this-and-this or so-and-so” is condescending.)

 

[V Chip]

What would happen if all the rich people leave?

Nothing. Because it won’t happen.

What would happen if aliens took over the minds of our pets and caused them to eat all humans? That’s just as germane to this conversation as your appeal to extremes is.

 

[zztop]

OK, let's say the billionaires pay more taxes. Will that end poverty?

Who knows, since you didn't give numbers. Pay how much more? 1% more than currently? no. However we have some evidence the current system does not work. And we don't have to rely on hypothetical situations. The top 3 wealthiest people in this country collectively hold more wealth than the bottom 50% of the domestic population. The current system is broken.

 

[Paul]

Who knows, since you didn't give numbers. Pay how much more? 1% more than currently? no. However we have some evidence the current system does not work. And we don't have to rely on hypothetical situations. The top 3 wealthiest people in this country collectively hold more wealth than the bottom 50% of the domestic population. The current system is broken.

I agree in that there is a lot of wealth concentration in the hands of a few. Why does that happen?

Can you answer a few questions?
How many women get to be as wealthy as Oprah? How many men get to be as wealthy as Bezos? How many can play golf as Tiger Woods did in his heyday? How many scientists get to do what Einstein did? How many get to do what The Beatles did? How did Henry Ford do it? Can we agree that some people are exceptional?

Let's erase all those folks from the map. Assume you live in a nation where everybody can only achieve to middle class status. How does that work? Would there be more or less poverty?

You say the wealthy have most of the wealth. Where did they get the wealth? Do you know? Did they take the wealth away from the poor? Where does the wealth come from?

 

[Paul]

You implied it’s completely or mostly genetics shaped by the environment. It’s not — it’s mostly environment. Shyness is not genetic, it is mostly environmental.

What do memes have to do with you calling shyness genetic?

(You need to stop assuming people haven’t heard of the same things you have. “Google is your friend” or “look up this-and-this or so-and-so” is condescending.)

I was not trying to be condescending. I was just trying to have a dialogue. When two people exchange ideas both sides learn something new.

Shy parent, shy child?

Not only extreme shyness runs in families, but also an early brain response related to shyness, our family study shows. This finding can inform future research on genetic and environmental factors that play a role in the development of extreme shyness.

www.leidenpsychologyblog.nl

 

[Paul]

Who knows, since you didn't give numbers. Pay how much more? 1% more than currently? no. However we have some evidence the current system does not work. And we don't have to rely on hypothetical situations. The top 3 wealthiest people in this country collectively hold more wealth than the bottom 50% of the domestic population. The current system is broken.

When it comes to Western Capitalist nations this is the most prosperous time in world history. All the poor of the world want to immigrate here. The issue is that we have inequality with regards to wealth. We compare ourselves to the Bezos of the world.

 

[samiam5211]

When it comes to Western Capitalist nations this is the most prosperous time in world history. All the poor of the world want to immigrate here. The issue is that we have inequality with regards to wealth. We compare ourselves to the Bezos of the world.

Many of those people trying to get here make the things that Amazon sells.

Capitalism in its current form depends on an impoverished worker class. That impoverished worker doesn’t have to live in the same country as the impoverished worker.

 

[Paul]

Many of those people trying to get here make the things that Amazon sells.

Capitalism in its current form depends on an impoverished worker class. That impoverished worker doesn’t have to live in the same country as the impoverished worker.

The impoverish working class will soon be replaced by AI and robots. Then what?

 

[samiam5211]

The impoverish working class will soon be replaced by AI and robots. Then what?

Exactly. Then what? What is your answer?

What good is robot labor if there isn’t anyone to buy the stuff they make?

Capitalism will collapse when that happens. It will not be a good life for the generations living through that era.

Now is the time to start building the structure that will remain.

 

[Paul]

Exactly. Then what? What is your answer?

What good is robot labor if there isn’t anyone to buy the stuff they make?

Capitalism will collapse when that happens. It will not be a good life for the generations living through that era.

Now is the time to start building the structure that will remain.

No one knows the answer. My prediction is that capitalism culminates in a system where everything is provided to all (rich and poor) due to technological development. However, we could also end in a dystopian world.

 

[Dragon]

No one knows the answer. My prediction is that capitalism culminates in a system where everything is provided to all (rich and poor) due to technological development. However, we could also end in a dystopian world.

Or maybe embrace the changes and work to prepare for that future instead?

Ensure that all working age citizents have access and means to upgrade their skills/Education concurrently with the technological development in society. That is where our 1% educational tax comes in. It ensures that workers whose skills are no longer current are able to upgrade those skills while still receiving their usual salary from their employers (who will then get reimbursed)

Shorter work week. Right now a lot of companies are going to 35 or 32 hours, but still maintaining the same productivity mainly due to technological advances.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

No one knows the answer. My prediction is that capitalism culminates in a system where everything is provided to all (rich and poor) due to technological development. However, we could also end in a dystopian world.

Could? Blade Runner is basically on the horizon. Although, at this point, corporations running things would be a vast improvement over the current form of U.S. government.

 

[V Chip]

When it comes to Western Capitalist nations this is the most prosperous time in world history. All the poor of the world want to immigrate here.

They want to immigrate here to get some of the wealth that we stole from them back. At the end of the day, all western countries didn't succeed because of capitalism -- we succeeded because we took with force, coercion, predatory practices, and taking advantage of desperation. Pure capitalism/free-market is by its nature predatory and built upon threat of force/harm or preying on the less fortunate/desperate, which is why we will never see a purely free-market country.