Science and Technology Breakthroughs (1 Viewer)

[Huntn]

Warnings About Artificial Intelligence:
I think if not handled properly there is a real danger here. Ask yourself, what happens to the ability of people to earn a wage in a capitalist society, when AI takes over the role of the human brain? Accounting, banking, construction, every management position, etc, etc, etc.

I am getting a little ahead of the situation as it exists today, but I want to be an optimist, I could imagine us evolving into socialist Utopia where people spend their lives exploring their intellectual and physical potentials, not spending a life of sweeping the floors, digging ditches, or handing fast food to customers across a counter.

However this is tempered by my pessimistic fear that we are not ready, might not ever be ready, more accurately said: too primative to make this work for us, and not destroy ourselves in the process. The number one problem is us, too individualistic, selfish, greedy and often corrupt, not like an ant or bee colony.

12 Risks and Dangers of Artificial Intelligence (AI)

Artificial intelligence has potential, but the dangers of AI have grabbed more attention in recent years. Check out 12 dangers of artificial intelligence.

builtin.com

From the article the dangers:

• Automation-spurred job loss
• Privacy violations
• Deepfakes
• Algorithmic bias caused by bad data
• Socioeconomic inequality
• Market volatility
• Weapons automatization

As AI grows more sophisticated and widespread, the voices warning against the potential dangers of artificial intelligence grow louder.
“The development of artificial intelligence could spell the end of the human race,” according to Stephen Hawking. The renowned theoretical physicist isn’t alone with this thought.

 

[SamAndreas]

This issue of AI's is an extension of the larger issue of automation of all types taking jobs from people which has been a fruitless endeavor to discuss since the industrial revolution began.

The reason it's fruitless and so eternally frustrating to discuss is because it happens under a capitalistic system backdrop which renders any discussions about the automation topic moot.

Better to go straight to the root cause of it all and discuss alternatives to the entire capitalistic system, because with a capitalistic system in place there are no feasible solutions for this derivative effect. These discussions always devolve down into "Oh Ain't it Just a Crying Shame."

Building model airplanes with balsa wood, tissue paper, and glue is a better use of time.

 

[Huntn]

This issue of AI's is an extension of the larger issue of automation of all types taking jobs from people which has been a fruitless endeavor to discuss since the industrial revolution began.

The reason it's fruitless and so eternally frustrating to discuss is because it happens under a capitalistic system backdrop which renders any discussions about the automation topic moot.

Better to go straight to the root cause of it all and discuss alternatives to the entire capitalistic system, because with a capitalistic system in place there are no feasible solutions for this derivative effect. These discussions always devolve down into "Oh Ain't it Just a Crying Shame."

Building model airplanes with balsa wood, tissue paper, and glue is a better use of time.

When enough people can’t find meaningful employment, a tipping point will be reached. Another important point is that you want the Federal Government staffed by people who are looking at the big picture and are actually worried about the whole, not just their select slice of the pie. Although I don’t think the Democrats who climbed into bed with corporatists in the 1980s are the best, they are still are a better choice than the alternative GOP for multiple reasons, number one the GOP no longer believes in Democracy… at all, or only when they get their way.

 

[SamAndreas]

 

[J-DONK]

When enough people can’t find meaningful employment, a tipping point will be reached. Another important point is that you want the Federal Government staffed by people who are looking at the big picture and are actually worried about the whole, not just their select slice of the pie. Although I don’t think the Democrats who climbed into bed with corporatists in the 1980s are the best, they are still are a better choice than the alternative GOP for multiple reasons, number one the GOP no longer believes in Democracy… at all, or only when they get their way.

There is a rabbit hole you can go down with this that leads to the singularity, etc. It's sound like sci-fi but it based on something very real, compounding technological progress.

This future America would require a lot of taxes on capital, and vast wealth distribution. Good luck getting that passed by either party. Neoliberals hate raising taxes on rich people as much as conservatives.

I know the boomers on this board don't like to hear this, but right now it's a race. Will all the capital rich boomers die off before AI, and technology gut the workforce of jobs, and what little capital Millennials/Zoomers can generate on artificially low income levels?

I feel sorry for Millennials. They may end up the unluckiest generation that didn't have to fight a massive war.

 

[Huntn]

There is a rabbit hole you can go down with this that leads to the singularity, etc. It's sound like sci-fi but it based on something very real, compounding technological progress.

This future America would require a lot of taxes on capital, and vast wealth distribution. Good luck getting that passed by either party. Neoliberals hate raising taxes on rich people as much as conservatives.

I know the boomers on this board don't like to hear this, but right now it's a race. Will all the capital rich boomers die off before AI, and technology gut the workforce of jobs, and what little capital Millennials/Zoomers can generate on artificially low income levels?

I feel sorry for Millennials. They may end up the unluckiest generation that didn't have to fight a massive war.

Human beings won’t do the right thing, can’t do the right thing, we are too selfish. It will take a catastrophe if we don’t outright blow ourselves up, before we wake up and then likely it will be too late. I’ll refer you to this thread:

How Do You Rate Our Chances of Long Term Survival?

The Human Species, how do you rate our chances at making it to a space traveling future versus destroying ourselves because 1) we don’t get along and 2) are selfish and 3) will destroy the environment kind of like bacteria that gobbles everything up and then perishes?Of interest consider two...

madaboutpolitics.com

 

[Huntn]

Nuclear Power 2023- EV discussions have inspired me. I’ll propose that nuclear is a vital component of any plan of ridding ourselves of reliance on fossil fuels.

Ultra safe Nuclear power- The fuel is uranium, not as common as thorium, and I’m not clear on just how dangerous it is, although they claim the way it is utilized, the technology is completely safe, no reliance on cooling water and electricity to pump the water, no chance of a meltdown, nuclear proliferation resistant. Watch the how this works video here:

Ultra Safe Nuclear

Reliable Zero-Carbon Energy Anywhere. Advanced nuclear developer of the Micro Modular Reactor (MMR) and other energy systems using TRISO and FCM Fuel.

www.usnc.com

How it works:

TRISO and FCM Fuel

The most robust fuel form ever developed for nuclear reactors. Designed and manfuctured in the USA. It is now available to approved vendors.

www.usnc.com

Then there is thorium reactors, ironically this technology has existed since WWII but it might be argued the Super Powers were more interested in powering their nuclear weapons, judgements clouded as compared to using thorium from the start.

The big deal about thorium, is that it is relatively plentiful, it is not highly radio active, and there is no application for bombs, no danger of meltdowns, and the waste does not create millions of barrels of highly toxic waste that no State wants to store.

Thorium-based nuclear power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

]https://interestingengineering.com/video/thorium-reactors

Thorium Nuclear Reactors: A safer alternative?

As the global climate change crisis mounts and the global population has surpassed 7 billion, the search for plentiful, environmentally-friendly energy has taken on new urgency.

science.howstuffworks.com

 

[Dragon]

Personally I think we need to go back to basics for several reasons and decentralize.

Almost half of all new builds in Denmark are build with at least one renewable source of energy use - and a large percentage with multiple.. And the last 18 months people have been lining up to add renewable energy sources to existing buildings as well

The most popular is geothermal heating and Solar. New constructions will need to conform to the A2020 standard, with regards to energy consumption and sources (Isolation/heat/electricity) in order to get a permit.

The advantages with decentralization is multiple

* Much less vulnerabilty since a lot of energy is produced on-site
* Economic. Surplus power goes into the grid and is deducted from the monthly bill 1:1. and surplus above own consumtion will generate revenue after the first $150 (fee) worth.
* The government has been running several campaign offering big tax discounts if you switch all or some of your energy consumption to your own installations.

Aside from on-site energy production, we also have biogas installations which solves 2 issues - energy and garbage. This is still something that is in its infancy but basically you sort your garbage in two - biological and non-biological. The biological will then be used to generate biogas which again will produce power. It also uses biological byproducts from farms, industries and others. Currently biogas covers more than 50% of our annual energy production

Wind farms
Depending on weather they can produce from 30% to 150% of our consumption. We exchange energy with germany, sweden and norway. That way we get hydropower from Sweden when the is wind not blowing very much, and they get wind power when their hydrodams are low on water.

Anyone can follow the current energy production (and the sources) here

https://en.energinet.dk/


Solar farms can also double as nature reserves

https://uk.edenrenewables.com/biodiversity-in-our-solar-farms

 

[Dragon]

Human beings won’t do the right thing, can’t do the right thing, we are too selfish. It will take a catastrophe if we don’t outright blow ourselves up, before we wake up and then likely it will be too late. I’ll refer you to this thread:

How Do You Rate Our Chances of Long Term Survival?

The Human Species, how do you rate our chances at making it to a space traveling future versus destroying ourselves because 1) we don’t get along and 2) are selfish and 3) will destroy the environment kind of like bacteria that gobbles everything up and then perishes?Of interest consider two...

madaboutpolitics.com

Your problem is not people being selfish but that your politicians are bought and paid by the fossil fuel industry. They lack any incentives to start or maintain a proper renevable energy policy which could benefit you all long term. You have some really good realestate which could easily produce a lot of energy which is currently being produced by burning fossile fuels.

 

[Huntn]

Your problem is not people being selfish but that your politicians are bought and paid by the fossil fuel industry. They lack any incentives to start or maintain a proper renevable energy policy which could benefit you all long term. You have some really good realestate which could easily produce a lot of energy which is currently being produced by burning fossile fuels.

If not selfish, them too sheeplike, stupid, unable to see, or unable to muster the effort to insist on what is needed from elected leaders. It does not help is that any leader who suggests some sacrifice in the name of collective good most likely will promptly lose their leadership position.

This is complicated hugely by Capitalism and the tendency towards corruption (more selfishness) when human beings desirie to enrich themselves at the expense of others, while not focused on us as the dominant species, caretakers, and the negative impact we as a group have on the planet. . It’s daily life stuff and what we might have to do without or change our habits, and if these habits are too hard to change, then we will suffer the undesirable consequences.

The bottom line is nothing significant will happen until we get smarter, more aware, or there is a huge crisis, suffering, death, that finally motivates us to take the required action.

 

[Dragon]

If not selfish, them too sheeplike, stupid, unable to see, or unable to muster the effort to insist on what is needed from elected leaders. It does not help is that any leader who suggests some sacrifice in the name of collective good most likely will promptly lose their leadership position.

This is complicated hugely by Capitalism and the tendency towards corruption (more selfishness) when human beings desirie to enrich themselves at the expense of others, while not focused on us as the dominant species, caretakers, and the negative impact we as a group have on the planet. . It’s daily life stuff and what we might have to do without or change our habits, and if these habits are too hard to change, then we will suffer the undesirable consequences.

The bottom line is nothing significant will happen until we get smarter, more aware, or there is a huge crisis, suffering, death, that finally motivates us to take the required action.

The main diffference here is money. All contributions to political parties are limited in amount and the amount and source must be publized. So there are no "dark money"
Since the economy is 99% electronic and banks will have to report all cash deposits over 1K, It is really, really difficult to hide money here Doing my taxes takes about 10 minutes because my employer has already registreded how much he has paid me in salary and benefits, the banks have already reported assets and debts so basically all I need to do is check the numbers and register how many days I was actually at the office rather than working from home (deductions for transportation expenses).. Then I get a receiot and 5 days later the tax refund is automatically deposited in my bank account.

As you can see from the above bribery is very, very difficult and those who do it will get caught very fast.

 

[Huntn]

The main diffference here is money. All contributions to political parties are limited in amount and the amount and source must be publized. So there are no "dark money"
Since the economy is 99% electronic and banks will have to report all cash deposits over 1K, It is really, really difficult to hide money here Doing my taxes takes about 10 minutes because my employer has already registreded how much he has paid me in salary and benefits, the banks have already reported assets and debts so basically all I need to do is check the numbers and register how many days I was actually at the office rather than working from home (deductions for transportation expenses).. Then I get a receiot and 5 days later the tax refund is automatically deposited in my bank account.

As you can see from the above bribery is very, very difficult and those who do it will get caught very fast.

I’m not sure about the argument you are making about money, but our priorities and corruption are definitely a concern. Who has the money and who does not is central to the issue. Side note: Capitalism will not sustain us in the long run.

The issue in general boils down to how we function as a species of team players. There is too much ME>WE, not nearly enough WE>ME. Arguably this is set in our nature. The choices we make collectively for leadership are based on selfishness, ignorance, racism, pervceptions of self advantage, and gullibility. Anyone who promises us the sky is elected regardless if it is fantasy or not, regardless of who we hurt to obtain the advantage. We are a selfish species more interested in short term personal comfort and advantage over our neighbors versus a mind set of looking at us as a team, in this together, adrift in a spaceship with limited resources.

Any hope of us being team players as a species, is overshadowed by our greediness and willingness to continue to do things like send manufacturing over seas to spew the poisons over there, as if that shields us personally, and to disenfranchise fellow citizens so I can be wealthy.

 

[Huntn]

Nose Pickers. Beware! The picking part, not the eating part, lol. Seriously, the idea is that by picking at the inside of your nostril, membranes are damaged making it easier for a certain bacteria to get into your sysytem and go to your brain. I’ll ask, what does it take to damage your nose by picking it?

Mouse Study Suggests an Unexpected Link Between Nose-Picking And Alzheimer's

 

[Dragon]

I’m not sure about the argument you are making about money, but our priorities and corruption are definitely a concern. Who has the money and who does not is central to the issue. Side note: Capitalism will not sustain us in the long run.

The issue in general boils down to how we function as a species of team players. There is too much ME>WE, not nearly enough WE>ME. Arguably this is set in our nature. The choices we make collectively for leadership are based on selfishness, ignorance, racism, pervceptions of self advantage, and gullibility. Anyone who promises us the sky is elected regardless if it is fantasy or not, regardless of who we hurt to obtain the advantage. We are a selfish species more interested in short term personal comfort and advantage over our neighbors versus a mind set of looking at us as a team, in this together, adrift in a spaceship with limited resources.

Any hope of us being team players as a species, is overshadowed by our greediness and willingness to continue to do things like send manufacturing over seas to spew the poisons over there, as if that shields us personally, and to disenfranchise fellow citizens so I can be wealthy.

The money part IS important because it basically makes corruption close to impossible and those few who tries always gets caught.

I think there is a cultural element in what you describe as well. Not all cultures have the same balance between "ME" and "We"

"We" is a major part of social democracies as the one I live in. We recognize that somehow we are all interconnected and we all share a common responsibility for the society we live in. And "profit" and "we" works fine together when done right. I work in IT and my employer will send anyone home if they have booked 40 hours in a given week ( our workweek is 37 hours) - That prevents employee burnout AND studies shows that after 40 hours the rate of errors increases by 60% and since it takes 3 times as long to fix and error than to get it right initially it is a very profitable policy as well as being beneficial to the employees.

We also gets 6 weeks paid vacation every year and 4 of those MUST be taken and can not be sold. Again - same reason, Well rested employees have a far higher productivity, gets less sick and are more motivated.

Medical treatments are free. The sooner people get well, the sooner they can contribute to society again. If you owned a factory you would certainly repair a machine that breaks down, why not repair the person who work with the machine and may have years of valuable experience ?

Same with education - A well educated workforce create more wealth than a non or low educated workforce,

So as you can see there are solid capitalistic reasons for everything - even though most of those things would be met with scorn by the US republicans lol

 

[J-DONK]

I guess this fits better in this thread. It's wild the lack of conversation about the possibility of mass unemployment caused by AI.

 

[Maxp]

I guess this fits better in this thread. It's wild the lack of conversation about the possibility of mass unemployment caused by AI.

Isn't this the real reason for all the mass tech layoffs?

 

[SamAndreas]

I guess this fits better in this thread. It's wild the lack of conversation about the possibility of mass unemployment caused by AI.

Thirty years ago I remember when jobber supply houses started using computers on the sales counters. Everyone thought that would reduce the sales staff at supply houses. That service techs would be able to get in and out of the supply houses faster.

That didn't happen. instead what happened is the sales counter sales staff had to be increased and the time it took to get a service tech in and out of the door increased instead of it taking less time. So the number of tech jobs increased because the techs were spending more time at suply houses instead of less time.

But the computers turned out to be boon for the supply houses so the computers stayed on the sales counter despite not doing what they were expected to do. What they did was make it possible for the supply houses to maintain a lot less stock and still have the things the techs needed. It improved the ability for the techs to get what they needed for the contractors so an increase of their payroll for extra techs was covered as well.

Extra jobs all around and the companies made more money instead of less due to the automation.

This same story applied to supermarkets with the point of sales scanners. Supermarkets increased the number of employees instead of being able to cut them. But the point of sales computers improved the way supermarkets could manage their back rooms. The kept less stock in those places where that stock was not available for customers to buy. The stock the stores held was moved from back rooms to sales shelves sooner so it reduced the amount of loss due to spoilage.

Across the board in business of many types this story was the same. Win, win, win, for everyone involved.

I don't see how AI's will replace people. They'll increase what people can do, not reduce what people can do.

 

[Huntn]

Thirty years ago I remember when jobber supply houses started using computers on the sales counters. Everyone thought that would reduce the sales staff at supply houses. That service techs would be able to get in and out of the supply houses faster.

That didn't happen. instead what happened is the sales counter sales staff had to be increased and the time it took to get a service tech in and out of the door increased instead of it taking less time. So the number of tech jobs increased because the techs were spending more time at suply houses instead of less time.

But the computers turned out to be boon for the supply houses so the computers stayed on the sales counter despite not doing what they were expected to do. What they did was make it possible for the supply houses to maintain a lot less stock and still have the things the techs needed. It improved the ability for the techs to get what they needed for the contractors so an increase of their payroll for extra techs was covered as well.

Extra jobs all around and the companies made more money instead of less due to the automation.

This same story applied to supermarkets with the point of sales scanners. Supermarkets increased the number of employees instead of being able to cut them. But the point of sales computers improved the way supermarkets could manage their back rooms. The kept less stock in those places where that stock was not available for customers to buy. The stock the stores held was moved from back rooms to sales shelves sooner so it reduced the amount of loss due to spoilage.

Across the board in business of many types this story was the same. Win, win, win, for everyone involved.

I don't see how AI's will replace people. They'll increase what people can do, not reduce what people can do.

If I was an optimist, possible, but I’m not. Automation represents a huge gobbler of jobs. Unless you imagine a never ending expansion of business/manufacturing, and even if you do, automation = Less jobs Or relatively less jobs. There will be millions with nothing to do.

What I see at the grocery store is 8 checkout lanes, 2 manned, and 6 self checkout terminals. Possibly 6 jobs gone. I already know that the job of answering phones has gone to AI, the vast majority of those jobs if people still do them went East. And I know that for assembly lines, corporations hate workers because a machine that works 24 hr a day is faster than any human and has no personal need, with minimal down time, and expects no social welfare. And comparatively, people are not efficient, and make mistakes. Any routine job requiring math like accounting is in jeopardy. And it is a huge assumption that has companies give jobs to automation, they will automatically look for people to do new jobs for them. And it they do, there is a high probability that those jobs will be high skill jobs, many/most workers will not have.

I predict the day of reckoning for Capitalism is not too far in the future.

As early as 2010 I read an article that claimed the technology exists so that 75% of the jobs could be replace by automation, if companies wanted to pay for it.

Goldman Sachs says generative A.I. could impact 300 million jobs — here's which ones

Artificial intelligence could automate up to a quarter of work in the U.S., a Goldman Sachs report says. Here's the most affected sectors and countries.

www.cnbc.com

https://www.usnews.com/news/economy/articles/2019-06-26/report-robots-will-replace-20-million-manufacturing-jobs-by-2030