Public Shaming of Teens- Good idea? (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

How Teens Are Using Anonymous Google Docs—And Enlisting A YouTube Star—To Out Allegedly Racist Classmates

A moment of reckoning is occuring, out view of most adults, among the country's teenagers and college students as America grapples with its renewed conversation about race.

www.forbes.com

At a time in America when offensive statues and executives alike are toppling, a similar reckoning is occurring, out of view of most adults, among the country’s teenagers and college students. These teens and young adults are using anonymous crowdsourced Google documents like the one Carbajal assembled, anonymous Twitter feeds and sometimes their own public Twitter accounts to “out” their peers for making allegedly racist comments. It’s hard to know how many lists of this type exist, but Forbes, using basic keyword searches this week on Twitter—racist, google doc and high school—found Carbajal’s and at least two others containing more than four dozen names of people from schools throughout America.

I think this is a terrible idea. I know public shaming is all the rage these days, but is this a just a sanctioned form of bullying?

 

[Dragon]

I agree. The people who choose to do this type of public shaming also put a target on their own back. The open themseleves up to criticism, people looking into their background and retaliatory attacks by people they call out.

We're still talking teens. They are more likely than not to keep quiet about it because it feels shameful. An adult no problem - they are mature enough to fight back, but not teens.

 

[JimEverett]

I think the point that is being made with these public shaming is that this is no longer a valid excuse when it comes to racism. Not even for kids. Neither is it a valid excuse to say it was done in private. It's not just about virtue signaling, as you see. At least for the people doing these public shaming.

In other words, if you don't want your kids to suffer a similar "exposure" that can effect the rest of their lives, teach them to not be racist or post racist crap.

I understand why that's grating for so many people and why it angers them. But I just also understand the other side and they're not completely wrong. Ultimately, this isn't illegal and it can't be stopped.

If it were only so easy to just teach kids not to do things we don't want them to do.

Just like in a lot of other areas, I think this hyper-morality train people are jumping on is dangerous.

 

[coldseat]

And what if someone was added to the list by someone telling a lie? We're talking young teens. The number of young teens who commit suicide due to cyberbulling each year is quite high.. Even if they did do it ... would that still be fine with you?

I never said I was fine with any of it. In fact, I specifically said it wasn't something that i would ever engage in.

I just recognize it for what it is and I'm not losing sleeping over it. I don't think there's a way to stop it and I'm not in favor of inacting any laws to stop it either.

 

[coldseat]

We're still talking teens. They are more likely than not to keep quiet about it because it feels shameful. An adult no problem - they are mature enough to fight back, but not teens.

If it were only so easy to just teach kids not to do things we don't want them to do.

Just like in a lot of other areas, I think this hyper-morality train people are jumping on is dangerous.

Given that teenagers are also the ones doing the public shaming, I doubt there's a way to force them to see that what they are doing can have unintended negative consequences. They feel that what they're are doing has to be done to bring racism out of the darkness and confront it. Good luck telling them they're wrong.

 

[Farb]

I think it is mainly virtue signaling.

I never said I was fine with any of it. In fact, I specifically said it wasn't something that i would ever engage in.

I just recognize it for what it is and I'm not losing sleeping over it. I don't think there's a way to stop it and I'm not in favor of inacting any laws to stop it either.

I don't think we need a law either or to make this illegal. I think the adults in this country need to start being the adults and acting like the adults.

 

[coldseat]

I think it is mainly virtue signaling.


I don't think we need a law either or to make this illegal. I think the adults in this country need to start being the adults and acting like the adults.

Exactly. That applies equally to both sides though.

 

[JimEverett]

Given that teenagers are also the ones doing the public shaming, I doubt there's a way to force them to see that what they are doing can have unintended negative consequences. They feel that what they're are doing has to be done to bring racism out of the darkness and confront it. Good luck telling them they're wrong.

Good point.

 

[bdb13]

Yeah, so I'll go ahead and acknowledge that I didn't fully think out the repercussions of this being done to teenagers.

I officially retract any support I had for this a couple of hours ago LOL.

 

[Farb]

Yeah, so I'll go ahead and acknowledge that I didn't fully think out the repercussions of this being done to teenagers.

I officially retract any support I had for this a couple of hours ago LOL.

LOL! Good on your for admitting it!

I think most of us here, at least the ones responding do not think this is a great idea for teenagers. Now we just can't agree on the best way to end it. I agree with @coldseat (that is rare!) that there probably isn't a reasonable way to end it besides talking with you and yours and explain not to post stupid things online because it lives forever and also understand that sometimes people, especially teenagers, are just stupid and stupid does not always equal evil.

 

[Ayo]

I got this same email from a relative, except it wasn't "virtue signalling" but rather "cancel culture" and it's been making the social media rounds, under the aegis of one or the other

I don't understand the insistence for either of these to be the case in order to discuss what is bullying. It feels forced - e.g. "The kids who are making the list are doing so in order that they feel virtuous" or "These kids are trying to cancel other kids reputations" - in an attempt to frame it as part of a broader politicized movement.

I mean, how long has bullying gone on? And how often is it about making yourself feel better? I mean, a lot of the racist 'bullying' in the 1950s was about assertion one's moral or virtue superiority. But we didn't call it virtue signaling.

A lot of bullies harass and demean in order to make themselves seem stronger, feel better. And I would not be surprised if it is happening here.

I'm around teens all day, every day. And I work in an arena where we deal with harassment along ethnic or religious or sexuality or class or etc - bullying takes a million different flavors and appears in a number of different ways. We've been working with Philip Zimbardo (Stanford Prison Experiment) on attacking bullying. We've had to come up with a definition of what we consider bullying in order to have policy follow suit.

I don't like this sort of harassment. Kids make dumb decisions and labeling them in a way that could move them to further harm is not something that I support. And I think it's the role of adults to try and counsel these kids out of their racism or their 'gotcha!ism.'

It's not about condoning racism or mitigating it - we've had to work with a case of the n-word being used to harass the same kid over weeks. That's obviously racist and problematic. In another case, a kid made a comment about Jewish people during a unit of Merchant of Venice which was out of bounds, but the kid didn't even realize what he was saying. He thought it was a joke - and knowing this kid, I'm confident this was the case.

Having both of these kids 'labeled' as the same thing is problematic.

But bullying like this happens all the time. Bullying worse than this happens all the time. And the invocation of 'teen suicide' is valid when it comes to bullying, but saying that something like "cancel culture" or "virtue signaling" is increasing teen suicide is just too much.

I think it gets re-cast, then, from something that's counter productive and political more than it is about helping kids.

And if you think this is really bad, you'd probably be shocked at what kids can actually get up to when they decide to be mean and heartless to their age peers.

 

[Farb]

I got this same email from a relative, except it wasn't "virtue signalling" but rather "cancel culture" and it's been making the social media rounds, under the aegis of one or the other

I don't understand the insistence for either of these to be the case in order to discuss what is bullying. It feels forced - e.g. "The kids who are making the list are doing so in order that they feel virtuous" or "These kids are trying to cancel other kids reputations" - in an attempt to frame it as part of a broader politicized movement.

I mean, how long has bullying gone on? And how often is it about making yourself feel better? I mean, a lot of the racist 'bullying' in the 1950s was about assertion one's moral or virtue superiority. But we didn't call it virtue signaling.

A lot of bullies harass and demean in order to make themselves seem stronger, feel better. And I would not be surprised if it is happening here.

I'm around teens all day, every day. And I work in an arena where we deal with harassment along ethnic or religious or sexuality or class or etc - bullying takes a million different flavors and appears in a number of different ways. We've been working with Philip Zimbardo (Stanford Prison Experiment) on attacking bullying. We've had to come up with a definition of what we consider bullying in order to have policy follow suit.

I don't like this sort of harassment. Kids make dumb decisions and labeling them in a way that could move them to further harm is not something that I support. And I think it's the role of adults to try and counsel these kids out of their racism or their 'gotcha!ism.'

It's not about condoning racism or mitigating it - we've had to work with a case of the n-word being used to harass the same kid over weeks. That's obviously racist and problematic. In another case, a kid made a comment about Jewish people during a unit of Merchant of Venice which was out of bounds, but the kid didn't even realize what he was saying. He thought it was a joke - and knowing this kid, I'm confident this was the case.

Having both of these kids 'labeled' as the same thing is problematic.

But bullying like this happens all the time. Bullying worse than this happens all the time. And the invocation of 'teen suicide' is valid when it comes to bullying, but saying that something like "cancel culture" or "virtue signaling" is increasing teen suicide is just too much.

I think it gets re-cast, then, from something that's counter productive and political more than it is about helping kids.

And if you think this is really bad, you'd probably be shocked at what kids can actually get up to when they decide to be mean and heartless to their age peers.

What email did you receive, I am confused on that.

I agree with just about everything here as well. I won't be shocked at what kids can do to other kids. I was a kid at one time, so I am well aware.

So your broader point is that we should not address it as 'cancel culture' or 'virtue signaling' and just address it as bullying? I could be ok labeling however a person wants. To me, 'virtue signaling' just sums it best as it describes the underlying purpose and response that generally follows.

 

[Ayo]

What email did you receive, I am confused on that.

my brother got an email about this specific case of racist-labeling, and attributed it to cancel culture and that led to a facebook post or message group or something and he sent it along to me. I followed the trail and it was some partisan right wing stuff re-framing

I agree with just about everything here as well. I won't be shocked at what kids can do to other kids. I was a kid at one time, so I am well aware.

Times and technology have changed while other, more primal, elements have not. There are a lot of things that I'd never be on the lookout for were it not for the kids telling me themselves.

So your broader point is that we should not address it as 'cancel culture' or 'virtue signaling' and just address it as bullying? I could be ok labeling however a person wants. To me, 'virtue signaling' just sums it best as it describes the underlying purpose and response that generally follows.

Why is virtue signalling labelling necessary or helpful here? Like I said, this came to my attention through his email and it was framed as "cancel culture" and the talk on the message board was entirely politicized.

I failed to see what 'cancel culture' in his case or 'virtue signalling' in this one is supposed to do for the discussion.

I mean, there's racialized harassment that's going on now and has been going on for years - but it wasn't labeled 'virtue signaling.' So I'm trying to understand the qualitative difference in this specific assignation and how it's supposed to improve the understanding of the dynamic or making it more solve-able.

And if 'virtue signalling' is shorthand for 'Person A wants to assert superiority over Person B because Person A actually masks an inferiority' then that's not new, either.

Like I said, I've spent a ton of time the last two years on bullying, including digital-based and social media-based and discriminatory (incl around race) and I've never seen 'virtue signalling' from any of the specialists we are working with. The term seems to have a much bigger political footprint (than educational and/or psychological), so I don't see what it's adding here.

I mean, this might just seem like semantics, and maybe it is. But I think it's easier and more productive to discuss any of these labeling actions as potentially harmful - including white kids bullying black kids for being black, etc - than having to filter it through a lens that - imo - seems politically loaded.

 

[Ayo]

To illustrate one of the examples I am talking about - this has been making news up here:

'You're my slave': Black Montreal teens say school is full of racial slurs

After a video of two Montreal girls in blackface circulated on Monday, local adults reacted swiftly and with shock. People called it “disgusting” and “ignorant.” Some said they couldn’t imagine their own kids doing the same.

“I was horrified. Absolutely horrified,” said Tom Rhymes, the assistant director general of the Lester B. Pearson School Board, which oversees the West Island high school the two girls attended.

But Black teenagers at the same school say that while the video may have shaken many, it didn’t surprise them.

“I’ve definitely heard the monkey stereotype,” she said. “They try to be funny, or it’s like ‘Oh, Black people are like monkeys,’ and then laugh it off, but it’s not funny.”

The school culture is rampant with overt racism, often disguised as jokes, Black students said. But the worst part is how they feel left to deal with it on their own, as teachers and administrators don’t seem to see the incidents as punishable offences.

Both girls also said they want the school administration to take these incidents much more seriously, cracking down with suspension, expulsion or at least detention.

“When a white student gets bullied, the bully gets, you know, some kind of suspension or detention or something,” said the first girl. “But when it’s directed towards a Black person, nothing. It’s just, ‘Oh, don’t say that anymore, don’t do that.’ That’s it.”

“Just talking to them is not enough,” said the second girl. “They should be held accountable for what they do.”

On a case by case basis, we need to discriminate. If a student is being labelled a 'racist' because they did racist things, that's a different matter than a student being unfairly tagged.

In these cases, you have black students being subjected to the insults and the slurs.

And, it does not surprise me that some kids have decided to seek retribution on their own by making things public. They see it happening with the phones documenting interactions with cops that get spread widely. So, they decide to shift the power themselves, and 'document' the racism they see by naming and shaming.

I'm not saying that's right.

But I also think that isn't necessarily 'virtue signalling' primarily. And approaching with that as a pre-conceived diagnosis wouldnt' effectively target the problem anyway

 

[Dragon]

Well in the case you mentioned there, the adults have failed major part of their responsibilities. It is important that the student see that the system is fair and don't treat people different due to the color of their skin. The adults have the responsibility to act quickly to stop racist behavior and to prevent the inevitable counter reaktion from the targeted students if they see that the racist behavior goes unpunished.

 

[Farb]

Gotcha. I didn't receive a right wing email. I saw the article for the NYT and could not read it due to the pay wall so I googles the headline and a similar article from Forbes popped up and I read it and I thought it was a good topic that, to me, covered several hot button issues in one discussion. So I began a thread.

As far as labeling, like I said, you can call it whatever someone likes but for me, personally, I think the term virtue signaling covers it the best for me because I think it also covers what I think is the force behind why this is a thing. I will freely admit that this might have been going on well before but I have a feeling that it really picked up speed as this type of public shaming became more and more acceptable and more and more encouraged by 'adults' and the media especially. Kids see people being destroyed for a tweet from 5 years ago and think that is perfectly normal in a society. Some may think that is fine, for some it will depend solely on the subject matter. I do not for the most part. Especially a kid simply because kids are dumb and can actually be pointed in the right direction.

 

[Ayo]

Kids see people being destroyed for a tweet from 5 years ago and think that is perfectly normal in a society. Some may think that is fine, for some it will depend solely on the subject matter. I do not for the most part. Especially a kid simply because kids are dumb and can actually be pointed in the right direction.

I think there is an element to public shaming, but I think it existed before this - it's been a part of the social media and bullying intersection going back as far as when I started teaching 20 years ago.

But as for the part I excerpted above, you and I are - I think - in agreement.

 

[Ayo]

Well in the case you mentioned there, the adults have failed major part of their responsibilities. It is important that the student see that the system is fair and don't treat people different due to the color of their skin. The adults have the responsibility to act quickly to stop racist behavior and to prevent the inevitable counter reaktion from the targeted students if they see that the racist behavior goes unpunished.

My point is that racialized taunting - and using social media to do it - isn't something novel. Its rise coincided with the technology's ascent.

Of course the adults failed. Of course the student needs to trust the system. These things, I believe, go without saying. And yet, despite that, we are far far behind of where we need to be.

I wasn't talking the follow up (or lack thereof). I was talking about the presence and existence of this flavor of race-based harassment in the first place.

 

[MT15]

Farb, “virtue signaling” and “cancel culture” are used almost exclusively by right wingers to put down more progressive types. Labels like this imply the person isn’t sincere and doesn’t really think what they are saying is true, that they are just saying it to “look good”. So basically calling people hypocrites and liars. Right wingers like to pretend it’s something only those darn leftist commies would do, while they always “tell it like it is”.

So, today I’m seeing all sorts of Trump supporter types on social media saying that masks are causing carbon dioxide poisoning, and that masks are stupid, make you weak, and nobody should ever wear them. Nothing true about any of that, but I digress. If I say they are “virtue signaling” to other Trump supporters, it takes away from them that they might actually hold those opinions and that they might be sincere in their beliefs. It essentially calls their motivation into question. And it ignores the actual issue at hand, which is that this sort of misinformation is actually causing harm to people and hurting our economy.